<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" standalone="yes"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"><channel><title>Swiss Cyber Storm</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/</link><description>Recent Blog entries on Swiss Cyber Storm</description><language>en-us</language><atom:link href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/index.xml" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml"/><item><title>Your feedback to Swiss Cyber Storm 2025</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/11/04/your-feedback-to-swiss-cyber-storm-2025/</link><pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2025 00:00:00 +0400</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/2025-10-25-SwissCyberStorm-0380_hu_c008190023dd5317.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/11/04/your-feedback-to-swiss-cyber-storm-2025/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Your feedback to Swiss Cyber Storm 2025&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/2025-10-25-SwissCyberStorm-0380_hu_c008190023dd5317.webp"
alt="View of the main stage of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference with a lineup of speakers"
>&lt;p>Here we go again with the traditional blog post with the feedback for the
conference that brings you - our audience - some transparency about the event.
We received feedback from &lt;strong>68 participants&lt;/strong>, which is a bit higher than
our usual response rate.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#overall-impression-of-the-swiss-cyber-storm-conference" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="overall-impression-of-the-swiss-cyber-storm-conference" class="">
Overall impression of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We start every survey with this simple but telling multiple-choice question.
The idea is to tune in and lead people to the conference. The fact that it’s
the same question allows us to compare the feedback year after year.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>55.6 %&lt;/strong> (2024: 57 %) – &lt;em>It was a very interesting and cool event, keep
it up and I’ll be there next year.&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>41.3 %&lt;/strong> (37 %) – &lt;em>It was quite good – I will consider attending next
year.&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>3.2 %&lt;/strong> (6 %) – &lt;em>It was okay, but I probably won’t go again.&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>0 %&lt;/strong> (0 %) – &lt;em>Bad, I won’t go again.&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>That translates into a &lt;strong>97 % positive&lt;/strong> vs. &lt;strong>3 % negative&lt;/strong> sentiment, which
is an absolute top score. I would not overemphasise this, since there is lots
of blur with such a survey, but anything above 90% sounds good.&lt;/p>
&lt;table>
&lt;thead>
&lt;tr>
&lt;th>Year&lt;/th>
&lt;th>Positive&lt;/th>
&lt;th>Negative&lt;/th>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;/thead>
&lt;tbody>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2025&lt;/td>
&lt;td>97 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>3 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2024&lt;/td>
&lt;td>94 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>6 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2023&lt;/td>
&lt;td>93 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>7 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2022&lt;/td>
&lt;td>95 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>5 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2021&lt;/td>
&lt;td>96 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>4 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2020&lt;/td>
&lt;td>—&lt;/td>
&lt;td>—&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2019&lt;/td>
&lt;td>91 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>9 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2018&lt;/td>
&lt;td>91 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>9 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2017&lt;/td>
&lt;td>89 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>11 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;/tbody>
&lt;/table>
&lt;p>So, once again: a very happy audience!&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#average-speaker-rating" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="average-speaker-rating" class="">
Average speaker rating
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>As always, we asked participants to rate each speaker individually (on a 1–4
scale, from &lt;em>bad&lt;/em> to &lt;em>very good&lt;/em>). We don’t publish those per-speaker numbers,
but we do calculate the average — a good reflection of how well our program
committee curated the lineup.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>For 2025, the &lt;strong>average rating was 3.27&lt;/strong>, up from 3.20 in 2024. That’s a very
strong result and close to 2021 when we ran a Corona edition in front of a
small audience of fans. When I started as program chair in 2017, we received
an average rating of 2.96, and it felt like a success. Now at 3.27 it has
become the standard for us.&lt;/p>
&lt;table>
&lt;thead>
&lt;tr>
&lt;th>Year&lt;/th>
&lt;th>Average Rating&lt;/th>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;/thead>
&lt;tbody>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2025&lt;/td>
&lt;td>&lt;strong>3.27&lt;/strong>&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2024&lt;/td>
&lt;td>3.20&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2023&lt;/td>
&lt;td>3.02&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2022&lt;/td>
&lt;td>3.19&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2021&lt;/td>
&lt;td>3.34 &lt;em>(a fanboy audience with fewer attendees than usual)&lt;/em>&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2020&lt;/td>
&lt;td>—&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2019&lt;/td>
&lt;td>3.04&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2018&lt;/td>
&lt;td>3.04&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2017&lt;/td>
&lt;td>2.96&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;/tbody>
&lt;/table>
&lt;p>One element that plays into this is the shaping of the audience after the
lineup. With a consistent direction and quality of the talks, those people
appreciating that style will return and those who don’t like it will attend
other conferences. That means that the fact the numbers are going Northeast
should be taken with some humility.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Still, we’re proud of this steady quality — and grateful to all speakers and
the team who make it happen. Inviting speakers is one thing, but preparing the
conference so they feel at ease and deliver their perfect talk is more work.&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="flex justify-center m-8 mb-12">
&lt;a target="_blank" class="btn btn-lg btn-neutral !text-neutral-content no-underline"
href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=www.swisscyberstorm.com&amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;&amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">
Get your ticket today!
&lt;/a>
&lt;/div>
&lt;a href="#ai-village" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="ai-village" class="">
AI Village
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The AI Village premiered in 2025, and it got people curious. Finding the
village was a challenge for many (the frequency clearly grew in the
afternoon).&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>27.9 %&lt;/strong> I visited it&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>14.8 %&lt;/strong> I even took part in a workshop&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>57.3 %&lt;/strong> I didn’t visit this time&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>When asked whether we should bring it back, &lt;strong>64.3 %&lt;/strong> said &lt;em>“Yes, and I’ll
visit next year!”&lt;/em> Another 25 % would like it to return even if they won’t
personally participate, and only 10.7 % said &lt;em>“No, thanks.”&lt;/em>&lt;/p>
&lt;p>That’s a clear “yes” from the community. We will have to balance that with the
costs such an endeavour brings with it.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#choice-of-the-focus-theme-resilience-in-a-mad-mad-world" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="choice-of-the-focus-theme-resilience-in-a-mad-mad-world" class="">
Choice of the focus theme “Resilience in a mad, mad world”
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Our 2025 focus theme — &lt;em>“Resilience in a mad, mad world”&lt;/em> — received &lt;strong>83 %
positive feedback&lt;/strong>. 8 % didn’t like it, and 9 % admitted they didn’t realise
there even was a focus theme (we’ll make it more prominent next time!).&lt;/p>
&lt;table>
&lt;thead>
&lt;tr>
&lt;th>Year&lt;/th>
&lt;th>Approval&lt;/th>
&lt;th>Theme&lt;/th>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;/thead>
&lt;tbody>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2025&lt;/td>
&lt;td>82 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>“Resilience in a mad, mad world”&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2024&lt;/td>
&lt;td>95 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>“The AI Revolution”&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2023&lt;/td>
&lt;td>93 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>“The Human Factor”&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2022&lt;/td>
&lt;td>92 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>“Digital Identities and How to Secure Them”&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2021&lt;/td>
&lt;td>88 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>“Securing the Supply Chain”&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2020&lt;/td>
&lt;td>—&lt;/td>
&lt;td>—&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2019&lt;/td>
&lt;td>83 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>“Embracing the Hackers”&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2018&lt;/td>
&lt;td>78 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>“Trust”&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2017&lt;/td>
&lt;td>67 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>“E-Voting” (but not very prominent)&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;/tbody>
&lt;/table>
&lt;p>When you look at the numbers, the approval is surprisingly low, and on top, a
stunning 9 % did not even notice the focus theme. I have a hard time making
sense of this. People were exceptionally happy with the conference even when a
surprisingly large number of participants did not really like its focus topic.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But anyway, it’s a result that makes sure we don’t lose touch with reality.&lt;/p>
&lt;hr>
&lt;a href="#food-and-beverages" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="food-and-beverages" class="">
Food and beverages
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Food is always an emotional topic, and after two excellent years, we faced some
issues at lunch. Food ran out too fast, and some people complained about the
dinner options (some of the food was ignored because it looked like
dessert).&lt;/p>
&lt;p>This is visible in the numbers in the survey.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Here’s how 2025 stacked up with recent years.&lt;/p>
&lt;table>
&lt;thead>
&lt;tr>
&lt;th>Year&lt;/th>
&lt;th>Great&lt;/th>
&lt;th>Good&lt;/th>
&lt;th>OK&lt;/th>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;/thead>
&lt;tbody>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2025&lt;/td>
&lt;td>49 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>44 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>7 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2024&lt;/td>
&lt;td>65 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>29 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>6 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;tr>
&lt;td>2023&lt;/td>
&lt;td>59 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>27 %&lt;/td>
&lt;td>11 %&lt;/td>
&lt;/tr>
&lt;/tbody>
&lt;/table>
&lt;a href="#where-did-people-hear-about-the-conference" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="where-did-people-hear-about-the-conference" class="">
Where did people hear about the conference?
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This question always reveals a lot about our community — and how word of mouth
continues to be our strongest marketing channel.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>63 %&lt;/strong> (2024: 53 %) – &lt;em>I’ve attended before&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>17 %&lt;/strong> (26 %) – &lt;em>Colleagues&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>5 %&lt;/strong> (10 %) – &lt;em>Through communication from a sponsor&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>4 %&lt;/strong> (5 %) – &lt;em>Through a partner organisation (InsomniHack, SATW, etc.)&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>2 %&lt;/strong> (2 %) – &lt;em>Online articles or blogs&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>4 %&lt;/strong> (2 %) – &lt;em>Social media&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;strong>5 %&lt;/strong> (2 %) – &lt;em>Other&lt;/em>&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>Returning visitors remain the backbone of Swiss Cyber Storm — a positive sign
of trust and community loyalty. And inviting them to bring their friends
continues to be a successful marketing strategy.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>All in all, SCS 2025 was another highly successful conference. We really loved
the vibes in the network area, the wonderful presentations, strong connections
in the workshops, and many new bonds formed among the audience.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Stay tuned for &lt;strong>Swiss Cyber Storm 2026 on October 20&lt;/strong> — and consider grabbing
your &lt;strong>super-early bird ticket&lt;/strong>. The ticket sale has started and
this is the best deal you will get.&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="flex justify-center m-8 mb-12">
&lt;a target="_blank" class="btn btn-lg btn-neutral !text-neutral-content no-underline"
href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=www.swisscyberstorm.com&amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;&amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">
Get your ticket today!
&lt;/a>
&lt;/div></description></item><item><title>New tickets for the AI Village and traffic rerouting for Kursaal Bern</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/10/07/new-tickets-for-the-ai-village-and-traffic-rerouting-for-kursaal-bern/</link><pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2025 00:00:00 +0700</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/AI-Village-1_hu_2b070f51ea0f2167.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Alessandro Monachesi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/10/07/new-tickets-for-the-ai-village-and-traffic-rerouting-for-kursaal-bern/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>New tickets for the AI Village and traffic rerouting for Kursaal Bern&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/alessandro-monachesi/avatar_hu_7b2b98baf937a64b.webp" alt="Alessandro Monachesi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Alessandro Monachesi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/AI-Village-1_hu_2b070f51ea0f2167.webp"
alt="The audience of the Swiss Cyber Storm Arena track"
>&lt;p>&lt;strong>Swiss Cyber Storm 2025&lt;/strong>, focusing on the theme of &lt;em>“Resilience in a mad, mad world”&lt;/em> is now three weeks away.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>New for this year’s conference is the &lt;strong>AI Village&lt;/strong>, a co-located event featuring hands-on workshops, discussions and talks about artificial intelligence in cybersecurity.
It’s a space for exchange between experts, beginners, makers, and the just curious.
Access to the AI Village is included with a Swiss Cyber Storm entry ticket.
More about the AI Village &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/ai-village/">here&lt;/a>.&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="flex justify-center m-8 mb-12">
&lt;a target="_blank" class="btn btn-lg btn-neutral !text-neutral-content no-underline"
href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=blog-2025-10-07-1&amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;&amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">
Buy your ticket now!
&lt;/a>
&lt;/div>
&lt;p>While access to the AI Village’s demos, presentations, and poster sessions is unrestricted, seats at the workshops are limited.
The first batch of workshop tickets was quickly gone, &lt;strong>but there’s good news:&lt;/strong> We have increased the number of tickets available for the workshops.
If you haven’t bought a Swiss Cyber Storm ticket yet, &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=blog-2025-10-07-1&amp;amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">now is the time!&lt;/a>
During the regular ticketing checkout process, you can select up to two of the six available AI Village workshops.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Already have a conference ticket? No problem, you can still register for workshops by updating your registration.
Just click on the link in the confirmation e-mail we sent you when you registered for the conference and change your registration details.
If you can’t find the e-mail, go to the ticketing site and click the button at the bottom (“Request order link”).&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We expect these new workshop tickets to be in high demand, so act fast!&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The following workshops are available:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/sessions/scs2025/ai-village-workshop-daniel-miessler/">“Agentic AI: A Hands-On Session with Fabric”&lt;/a> by Daniel Miessler (Unsupervised Learning)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/sessions/scs2025/ai-village-workshop-andrea-hauser-marisa-tschopp-and-team/">“AI Security – What Could Possibly Go Wrong?”&lt;/a> by Andrea Hauser, Ralph Meier, Yann Santschi, Lucie Hoffmann and Marisa Tschopp (scip)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/sessions/scs2025/ai-village-workshop-katie-koetke-and-team/">“Navigating the AI Crisis: An Interactive Crisis Experience”&lt;/a> by Katie Koetke&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/sessions/scs2025/ai-village-workshop-andrei-kucharavy/">“Threat Modelling LLMs and Their Integrations”&lt;/a> by Andrei Kucharavy (HES-SO Valais-Wallis)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/sessions/scs2025/ai-village-workshop-candid-wueest/">“Dark Prompts and Malicious Agents: Offensive AI in Action”&lt;/a> by Candid Wüest (xorlab)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/sessions/scs2025/ai-village-workshop-roland-meier/">“Automation of Cyber Defense”&lt;/a> by Roland Meier (armasuisse)&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>Please note that the AI Village timetable has changed slightly since its initial publication.
You can find the whole schedule with the actual times &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/ai-village/#schedule--october-28-2025">here&lt;/a>.&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="flex justify-center m-8 mb-12">
&lt;a target="_blank" class="btn btn-lg btn-neutral !text-neutral-content no-underline"
href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=blog-2025-10-07-1&amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;&amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">
Buy your ticket now!
&lt;/a>
&lt;/div>
&lt;a href="#changed-traffic-routing-for-kursaal-bern" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="changed-traffic-routing-for-kursaal-bern" class="">
Changed traffic routing for Kursaal Bern
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This year, the city of Bern has prepared a big surprise: Kornhausbrücke, the large bridge spanning the Aare valley which provides us with a beautiful view of Bern’s old town, is undergoing renovation and is therefore closed to traffic.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>The journey via the Bern-Wankdorf motorway exit (2 km away) will remain unchanged.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>From Bern railway station, the replacement bus line 9A (in the direction of Schönburg/Viktoriaplatz) will take you to Viktoriaplatz in 5–10 minutes.
After a walk of around 260 meters, you will reach the entrance to the Kursaal Bern.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Pedestrians can still cross the bridge from the old town to the Kursaal.&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>For more details, maps of the rerouting and additional parking information, &lt;a href="https://kursaal-bern.ch/en/directions-and-parking">see here&lt;/a>.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Six more exciting speakers in our conference line-up</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/06/25/six-more-exciting-speakers-in-our-conference-line-up/</link><pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2025 00:00:00 +2500</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2024/Swiss-Cyber-Storm-2024_0009_2400x1600_hu_653d468f1132643a.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Alessandro Monachesi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/06/25/six-more-exciting-speakers-in-our-conference-line-up/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Six more exciting speakers in our conference line-up&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/alessandro-monachesi/avatar_hu_7b2b98baf937a64b.webp" alt="Alessandro Monachesi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Alessandro Monachesi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2024/Swiss-Cyber-Storm-2024_0009_2400x1600_hu_653d468f1132643a.webp"
alt="The audience of the Swiss Cyber Storm Arena track"
>&lt;p>Smart cities, undersea cables, risks to the DNS, ransomware, GovCERT, software bills of materials, independent cyber threat intelligence, metrics, and the CyberPeace Institute are just a few of the topics our speakers will address at Swiss Cyber Storm 2025.
Some of these topics are part of our focus topic – &lt;em>Resilience in a Mad, Mad World&lt;/em> – while others focus on additional relevant security topics.&lt;/p>
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&lt;p>With Program Chair Christian Folini looking for more exciting security experts, the conference schedule is filling up quickly.
Over the past month, we have announced our keynote speaker, Mark Barwinski, as well as Camino Kavanagh, Michael Hausding, and Carlos Ishimaru.
Now is the time to officially add a few more names to the line-up:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/marina-bochenkova/">Marina Bochenkova&lt;/a> is a cybersecurity analyst specializing in digital forensics, incident response, and the security of industrial control systems and other critical infrastructure.
Control systems and the various connected sensors play a major role in smart cities.
Marina’s talk will be about the specific resilience problems that come from the exposure of these urban areas to cybersecurity risks.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/roman-huessy/">Roman Hüssy&lt;/a> is Co-Director of the Government Computer Emergency Response Team (GovCERT), the Swiss national technical cyberincident response center.
Roman has many years of experience in cyberthreat intelligence, having founded Abuse.ch in 2007.
In this rare public appearance, he will show typical incidents handled by GovCERT, and how they gain knowledge and share that with Swiss critical infrastructure operators and the wider audience.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/aram-hovsepyan/">Aram Hovsepyan&lt;/a> contributed to the science of metrics for his PhD at DistriNet KU Leuven.
During his fifteen years of experience in cybersecurity, he came across a lot of bad dashboards.
This talk will teach us how to improve them with the Goal-Question-Metric framework that helps to pick the numbers that actually contribute to our goals.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/olle-johansson/">Olle E. Johansson&lt;/a> has over twenty years of experience in telecommunications, VoIP, and cybersecurity.
Olle is active in open-source projects and standard forums, the founder of major appsec and network security initiatives, and a specialist for various categories of software bills of materials (SBOM).
These days, SBOMs are everywhere, but not every SBOM use is equally successful.
Olle will tell us how to improve their application, how to work with them day in and day out and how to develop your own SBOM lifestyle for your organization.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/panagiotis-vlachos/">Panos Vlachos&lt;/a> is an information security expert with a background in software engineering.
Currently a PhD candidate, he volunteers for the CyberPeace Builders (CPB) programm for the Geneva-based CyberPeace Institute.
CPB matches NGOs with security needs with practicioners.
The support can include advisories or hands on missions like the work Panos is doing: dark web monitoring, vulnerability scanning, etc.
Panos will present the CPB program and show us how to join.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/verena-zimmermann/">Verena Zimmermann&lt;/a> is Assistant Professor for Security, Privacy and Society at ETH Zürich.
Her research interests comprise the human aspects of safety, IT security and privacy, like usable authentication, privacy-friendly smart home concepts and the human-centered design of tasks in smart cars.
Her presentation will explain certain design principles and how to make practical use of her research.&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
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&lt;p>We will complete the program in the coming weeks.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>A first look at this year’s speakers</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/04/16/a-first-look-at-this-years-speakers-2/</link><pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2025 00:00:00 +1600</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2024/Swiss-Cyber-Storm-2024_0019-Audience_2400x1600_hu_652455701bb87f4e.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Alessandro Monachesi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/04/16/a-first-look-at-this-years-speakers-2/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>A first look at this year’s speakers&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/alessandro-monachesi/avatar_hu_7b2b98baf937a64b.webp" alt="Alessandro Monachesi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Alessandro Monachesi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2024/Swiss-Cyber-Storm-2024_0019-Audience_2400x1600_hu_652455701bb87f4e.webp"
alt="The audience of the Swiss Cyber Storm Arena track"
>&lt;p>We are pleased to announce the following speakers for Swiss Cyber Storm 2025:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/camino-kavanagh/">Camino Kavanagh&lt;/a> is &lt;em>THE&lt;/em> expert on subsea cables.
She is currently a Senior Fellow at King’s College London and became known to a wider audience with her 2023 UNIDIR report „Wading in Murky Waters”, which addresses the fragility of our deep-sea infrastructure and how we can make global connectivity more resilient.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/michael-hausding/">Michael Hausding&lt;/a> is a member of Switch CERT and a board member of FIRST.org, the global forum of incident response and security teams.
As a well-known DNS expert, he is familiar with all forms of domain abuse and the complexity of the regulation and technology surrounding the system.
He will explain the risks for the Internet in Switzerland and abroad if the USA were to exert direct influence on the system.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/carlos-ishimaru/">Carlos Ishimaru&lt;/a> is a young Brazilian threat intelligence analyst and researcher specializing in reverse engineering, HUMINT, and anonymization.
He recently made a name for himself by reporting inside information from ransomware gangs he joined as an affiliate.&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>More speakers will be announced in the coming weeks.&lt;/p>
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&lt;p>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/mark-barwinski/">Mark Barwinski&lt;/a>, our opening keynote speaker, has already been announced.
But today we are thrilled to present a new article by Mark on our blog.
He weighs in on the SignalGate leak and shares first-hand accounts of OPSEC issues from his time at the NSA.
He covers several examples and offers strong advice for realistic OPSEC practices in 2025.
You can read the article exclusively &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/2025/04/14/signalgate-and-the-enduring-relevance-of-opsec-in-2025S/">here on our blog&lt;/a>.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>The AI Village: A new addition to Swiss Cyber Storm</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/04/15/the-ai-village-a-new-addition-to-swiss-cyber-storm/</link><pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2025 00:00:00 +1500</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/AI-Village-1_hu_2b070f51ea0f2167.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Alessandro Monachesi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/04/15/the-ai-village-a-new-addition-to-swiss-cyber-storm/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>The AI Village: A new addition to Swiss Cyber Storm&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/alessandro-monachesi/avatar_hu_7b2b98baf937a64b.webp" alt="Alessandro Monachesi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Alessandro Monachesi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/AI-Village-1_hu_2b070f51ea0f2167.webp"
alt="Logo for the Swiss Cyber Storm AI Village"
>&lt;p>With its focus on AI, last year’s Swiss Cyber Storm clearly struck a chord.
And in 2024, neither the development nor our commitment to the topic has stopped.
This year, we want to go deeper and involve you, our audience, more in this discourse: Enter the &lt;strong>Swiss Cyber Storm AI Village&lt;/strong>.&lt;/p>
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&lt;p>The AI Village at Swiss Cyber Storm 2025 puts the focus again on artificial intelligence in cybersecurity—in a hands-on, interactive, and accessible way.
Our goal is to make AI in this context tangible, spark curiosity, and share knowledge at eye level.
Whether it’s threat detection, anomaly analysis, or ethical issues, visitors can explore how modern AI systems are used in security, what their limitations are, and how they can be used creatively, safely, and responsibly.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>With live demos, short workshops, and discussion sessions, the Village invites everyone to participate, no prior knowledge required.
It’s a space for exchange between experts, beginners, makers, and the just curious.
We want to show that AI in cybersecurity is more than just hype.
It’s a powerful tool with real potential if understood and used wisely.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>As part of the Swiss Cyber Storm Conference, the AI Village will be free for all conference attendees.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>More information about the AI village will soon be available here: &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/ai-village/">SCS AI Village&lt;/a>.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="max-w-full ">
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/AI-Village_hu_f122dfdea89a4715.webp"
alt="Flyer for the first ever Swiss Cyber Storm AI Village"
class="mx-auto w-auto h-auto max-h-[50vh] rounded-xs shadow-lg object-cover md:object-contain lg:object-scale-down"
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>
&lt;/figure></description></item><item><title>Signalgate and the Enduring Relevance of OPSEC in 2025</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/04/14/signalgate-and-the-enduring-relevance-of-opsec-in-2025/</link><pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2025 00:00:00 +1400</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/OPSEC-Soldier-SOF.png_hu_83a5b1b004e33852.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Mark Barwinski</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/04/14/signalgate-and-the-enduring-relevance-of-opsec-in-2025/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Signalgate and the Enduring Relevance of OPSEC in 2025&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/mark-barwinski/avatar_hu_88074e1cf47ada64.webp" alt="Mark Barwinski" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Mark Barwinski
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/OPSEC-Soldier-SOF.png_hu_83a5b1b004e33852.webp"
alt="A crouching soldier poised for action"
>&lt;p>&lt;em>The following is a post by Mark Barwinski, the opening keynote speaker for Swiss Cyber Storm 2025.
Mark has over 20 years of cybersecurity leadership experience spanning financial services, professional consulting, manufacturing, and government intelligence.
In this blog post, he shares first-hand experiences of OPSEC failures from his time at the NSA, and offers strong advice for realistic OPSEC practices in 2025.
By publishing this article for the first time, Swiss Cyber Storm hopes to provide a basis for further discussion.&lt;/em>&lt;/p>
&lt;p>For more info about Mark Barwinski: &lt;a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/markbarwinski/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/markbarwinski/&lt;/a>&lt;/p>
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&lt;h2 id="executive-summary" class="">
Executive Summary
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&lt;p>In March 2025, senior U.S.
national security officials exposed classified military strike details against Houthi targets through improper use of the Signal messaging app—an event now widely referred to as “Signalgate.” This significant operational security (OPSEC) failure highlights crucial vulnerabilities not only within government communication practices but can also inform corporate security protocols.
This paper examines the Signalgate incident, extracts critical lessons from historical OPSEC successes and failures, analyzes Signal’s limitations, and emphasizes actionable strategies for corporate leaders.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Effective security relies fundamentally on the consistent application of OPSEC principles, cultural awareness, robust communication protocols, and exemplary leadership behaviors.
Technological advancements alone cannot safeguard sensitive information.
By implementing structured, disciplined communication practices and fostering a culture of security awareness, corporate leaders can significantly mitigate risks from espionage, leaks, and cyber threats—protecting their competitive advantage and, crucially, ensuring the safety of their personnel.&lt;/p>
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Introduction: The Breach at the Highest Levels
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&lt;p>On March 24, 2025, a significant breach in U.S.
national security occurred when top officials mistakenly included a journalist from The Atlantic in a Signal messaging group titled “Houthi PC Small Group Chat.” The group, comprising America’s most senior national security leaders—including the National Security Adviser, Secretary of Defense, Vice President, CIA Director, and others—shared detailed classified information about an imminent military operation against Houthi targets.
These communications revealed sensitive operational details, notably involving Israeli intelligence assets providing real-time confirmations before and after the military strike.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The consequences were serious, exposing not only critical intelligence methods but also systemic flaws in operational security at the highest levels.
Similar security failures take place on the private sector too, where sensitive discussions frequently occur through inadequately secured communication channels.
The parallels between governmental and corporate OPSEC failures can be reduced not to technical short comes – although they play a factor – but rather in the laxed attitudes and failure to practice fundamental security concepts.This paper explores the Signalgate incident’s broader implications, highlighting lessons that corporate entities can apply to prevent similar operational security failures.
By integrating common sense OPSEC principles into daily practices, organizations can protect sensitive information, maintain operational integrity, and safeguard their competitive positions against increasingly sophisticated threats, and ensure the safety of their employees in risky geopolitical environments.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#signalgate-incident-analysis-a-cascading-security-catastrophe" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
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Signalgate Incident Analysis: A Cascading Security Catastrophe
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The Signalgate incident reveals a systemic collapse of operational security at the highest levels of American government, going far beyond an isolated mistake.
The cascade began when National Security Advisor Mike Waltz mistakenly added The Atlantic’s editor-in-chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, to the Signal group, believing he was communicating with another government official.
This critical initial lapse in verifying group membership quickly escalated into a series of alarming disclosures.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth subsequently shared detailed operational plans approximately two hours prior to a scheduled military strike against Houthi targets.
His messages explicitly detailed the deployment of F-18 fighter jets launching at precisely 12:15 pm ET and a second-strike wave at 2:10 pm ET, the launch of MQ-9 strike drones, and sea-based Tomahawk cruise missiles commencing strikes at 3:36 pm ET.
Such precise operational specifics provided adversaries ample opportunity to alert targeted individuals or deploy effective countermeasures.
Yet, Secretary Hegseth insists all information is not sufficiently sensitive to rise to the level of classified information.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Vice President Vance, requesting operational confirmation, prompted National Security Advisor Waltz to further compound the disclosure by confirming that the U.S.
had “visual identification” of the primary target, identified as a leading missile strategist entering his girlfriend’s building—which subsequently collapsed from the strike.
This explicit disclosure jeopardized Israeli human intelligence (HUMINT) assets, potentially compromising their lives and years of meticulous intelligence-gathering efforts.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Further troubling was the style of communication observed among these senior officials, characterized by unnecessary mutual reinforcement, personal praise, and informal congratulatory exchanges as if immature children seeking acceptance.
Such behavior sharply contrasts the disciplined, concise, and highly professional communication typically expected at the highest strategic levels and witnessed by me during 12 years of closely collaborating in mixed military and civilian environments across three continents, including one year in Afghanistan.
Experienced military commanders know collateral damage is highly likely and American lives can also be potentially at risk during such missions.
Perhaps due to this, a recognition that it is not “War-by-Chat” on Signal, that my experiences working with these leaders differs from what we witnessed in this exchange.
In this instance, the World witnessed the complete callousness of this leadership towards human cost.
Instead, they seemed more concerned with the adequate sprinkling of appropriate emojis throughout their padding of each other’s back.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Lastly, special envoy Steve Witkoff’s participation from Moscow—an epicenter of sophisticated signals intelligence and espionage operations—significantly increased the risk exposure.
This risk was intensified by the heightened geopolitical tensions marked by sabotage operations and assassination plots across Europe as we have experienced over the past several years.
Just days following Signalgate, The New York Times published “The Secret History of the War in Ukraine,” outlining extensive U.S.
intelligence support directly resulting in significant Russian military losses, including several generals, during this multi-year conflict.
It is therefore reasonable to conclude given the opportunity, Russia likely would exploit the compromised U.S.
operational details as an opportunity for retaliation, potentially placing American pilots in severe jeopardy or allowing the Houthi leader to escape.Ultimately, Signalgate demonstrates a breakdown in OPSEC discipline, highlighting critical vulnerabilities in both communication practices and operational culture at the highest governmental levels.
Failing to follow some fundamental practices can result in catastrophic real-world consequences.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#personal-insights-operational-lessons-learned" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="personal-insights-operational-lessons-learned" class="">
Personal Insights: Operational Lessons Learned
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I joined the National Security Agency as an intern in 2004, performing protocol reverse engineering and seeking to identify potentially sensitive or classified information in everyday Department of Defense (DoD) network traffic.
By 2008, I assumed the role of Chief of the Joint Communications Security Monitoring Activity (JCMA) Europe (a.k.a.
CIRCUITKEG).
This experience offers me an invaluable insight and opinion into the systemic vulnerabilities exposed by the Signalgate incident.
At JCMA, our mission was uniquely focused—monitoring our own communications through the eyes of adversaries, identifying critical vulnerabilities in seemingly secure systems, and rigorously enforcing operational security (OPSEC) practices.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>One key lesson consistently reinforced during my tenure was that most security breaches do not arise from sophisticated technical exploits but rather from basic failures of discipline, awareness, and operational culture.
At JCMA Europe, seemingly innocuous details like aircraft parking patterns or travel itineraries, casually shared through unsecured channels, consistently posed significant security risks.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Operating from our windowless secure facility, we maintained constant vigilance—our screens flickering 24/7 with communication intercepts, our analysts hunting for fragments of sensitive information appearing where they shouldn’t.
Unlike conventional security that builds walls, we looked for what seeped through the cracks.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>In one such example of innocuous information having potentially catastrophic consequences, vehicle parking patterns could reveal to an adversary the most appropriate attack windows against VIP delegations.
During a VIP European visit, my team detected a disturbing pattern in the logistics communications and patterns.
Through careful analysis of ground transportation arrangements, and aircraft movements as well as parking configurations on the tarmac, we could pinpoint precisely if this most senior of senior U.S.
representatives was present in the aircraft.
The truly alarming realization came when we confirmed these same patterns were visible to anyone with binoculars from a freeway near the airfield.
Guidance was issued for executive protection teams to thwart potential adversarial attacks by changing these telltale practices.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>In another instance, we intercepted unencrypted emails/faxes containing detailed travel itineraries for the NSA and DIA directors’ upcoming visit to Kabul, Afghanistan.
The messages, sent through unclassified channels, included specific routes through Kabul and exact arrival times at multiple locations—essentially a targeting package for anyone seeking to attack the motorcade.
My team worked through the night, coordinating security details to implement completely new routes and timing.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>These operational security gaps extend beyond obvious breaches.
Intelligence professionals have long recognized how seemingly innocuous patterns reveal sensitive operations.
The oft-cited “pizza box intelligence” phenomenon—where increased late-night food deliveries to specific Pentagon sections coupled with late night office lights can be correlated with operational surges— This demonstrates how indirect indicators can reveal classified activities, and how adversaries’ piece together intelligence from unexpected sources thus anticipating upcoming U.S.
military operations.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The vulnerabilities I confronted at JCMA Europe weren’t confined to government operations.
Corporate executives traveling through our region faced similar risks—their movements, meeting patterns, and communications potentially revealing negotiation strategies, merger plans, or product launches to competitors and foreign intelligence services alike.
The same methodologies we developed to protect military operations now provide the foundation for corporate security in an increasingly hostile business intelligence landscape.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#historical-opsec-lessons-successes-and-failures-with-lasting-relevance" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="historical-opsec-lessons-successes-and-failures-with-lasting-relevance" class="">
Historical OPSEC Lessons: Successes and Failures with Lasting Relevance
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&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The Signalgate incident is not an outlier—it’s the latest in a long continuum of operational security breaches.
Understanding historical OPSEC successes and failures offers insights for both government leaders and corporate decision-makers operating in increasingly adversarial digital environments.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#opsec-successes-gaining-strategic-advantage-through-control-of-information" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h3 id="opsec-successes-gaining-strategic-advantage-through-control-of-information" class="">
OPSEC Successes: Gaining Strategic Advantage through Control of Information
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&lt;/h3>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Operation Bodyguard (World War II):
The D-Day deception campaign remains a landmark in OPSEC excellence.
Through an elaborate mix of double agents, fake radio traffic, decoy equipment, and false intelligence, Allied forces convinced the German high command that the invasion would occur at Pas-de-Calais instead of Normandy.
This misdirection drastically reduced German defenses at the real landing sites and saved thousands of lives.
For businesses, this serves as a clear demonstration of the competitive advantage that controlled narrative and strategic misinformation can provide—especially during high-stakes negotiations, market launches, or legal disputes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#operation-neptune-spear-2011" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
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Operation Neptune Spear (2011):
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The raid to eliminate Osama bin Laden exemplified disciplined information compartmentalization.
Planning was tightly held within a select circle, and even senior cabinet officials were kept in the dark until the final phase.
The result was total tactical surprise and mission success under extraordinary geopolitical pressure.
For corporate leadership, this underscores the importance of access controls, especially in M&amp;amp;A transactions, product development, or strategic pivots where a leak could destroy leverage or first-mover advantage.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#cia-abbottabad-cover-operation" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="cia-abbottabad-cover-operation" class="">
CIA Abbottabad Cover Operation:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>In preparation for the bin Laden raid, CIA operatives used a fake vaccination campaign to collect DNA samples.
This ingenious tactic allowed operatives to confirm bin Laden’s presence without compromising the larger operation.
The takeaway: even in constrained environments, creative cover mechanisms can support secure intelligence collection.
In corporate terms, this is akin to using benign pretexts—like routine audits or supplier vetting—to quietly gather insight without revealing strategic intent.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>These three examples demonstrate the resounding success which can be achieved when information is controlled and managed as a resource.
Determining what you share, when you share it, to who you share it, and how you share it, can have significant advantages.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#opsec-failures-when-lapses-become-liabilities" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h3 id="opsec-failures-when-lapses-become-liabilities" class="">
OPSEC Failures: When Lapses Become Liabilities
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&lt;/h3>
&lt;/a>
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&lt;h6 id="uss-cole-bombing-2000" class="">
USS Cole Bombing (2000):
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>A crew member’s seemingly harmless email about an upcoming port call in Yemen was later posted online.
Terrorists used this information to time an attack, killing 17 U.S.
sailors.
This tragic event illustrates how even low-level disclosures can have lethal consequences.
In today’s business world, similar risks exist when employees post about travel, client visits, or sensitive projects on social media.
A single careless message can tip off competitors or hostile actors to strategic moves.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#russia-in-ukraine-2014" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="russia-in-ukraine-2014" class="">
Russia in Ukraine (2014):
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Russian military involvement in Ukraine was exposed not by spies or satellites, but by Instagram posts.
Soldiers’ selfies, complete with geotags and unit identifiers, contradicted the Kremlin’s public denials.
This modern OPSEC failure shows how metadata—often invisible to users—can be weaponized.
Corporate teams need to be equally cautious with geotagged photos, Slack discussions, and cloud-shared files, which can reveal patterns, locations, and affiliations to competitors or hostile entities.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Technologies evolve, but the foundational principles of OPSEC remain constant.
Control over who knows what, when, and how remains the backbone of operational integrity—whether it’s a military campaign or a corporate initiative.
Leaders who underestimate the importance of information discipline—especially in a world saturated with sensors, metadata, and digital exhaust—invite unnecessary risk.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#relevance-of-opsec-in-corporate-environments-today" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="relevance-of-opsec-in-corporate-environments-today" class="">
Relevance of OPSEC in Corporate Environments Today
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;a href="#why-opsec-matters-for-businesses-now-more-than-ever" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h3 id="why-opsec-matters-for-businesses-now-more-than-ever" class="">
Why OPSEC Matters for Businesses Now More than Ever
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h3>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Corporate leaders in 2025 face threats rivaling those once exclusive to nation-states.
Private enterprises are targeted by states, criminal syndicates, and espionage units not just for IP and profit, but for geopolitical advantage.
Key industries like energy, aerospace, banking, pharmaceuticals, and advanced tech are now prime targets, not peripheral actors.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The threat landscape has expanded exponentially with connected devices creating innumerable vulnerability points.
Adversaries deploy precise persistent threats while AI transforms data analysis capabilities.
Corporate targets face sophisticated social engineering based on detailed research and psychological profiles.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Organizations now exist within a global intelligence ecosystem where previously overlooked communications—contract talks, M&amp;amp;A planning, product roadmaps, infrastructure plans—are actively surveilled.
Effective corporate OPSEC extends beyond technical safeguards to human behavior, device usage, and communication protocols.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The Signalgate incident exemplifies what businesses unknowingly risk daily: unsecured channels, unverified participants, and casual sharing of critical information—often with little awareness of consequences.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#swiss-government-case-study-berns-use-of-whatsapp-and-threema" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h3 id="swiss-government-case-study-berns-use-of-whatsapp-and-threema" class="">
Swiss Government Case Study: Bern’s Use of WhatsApp and Threema
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h3>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>When the Signalgate story broke in the United States, it naturally prompted reflection here in Switzerland.
“Could this happen here?”—I believe current practices make it easy for foreign intelligence services.
Officially, we pride ourselves on stricter communication protocols: the Federal Council uses Threema Work, ministers receive encrypted secondary phones, and personal devices are excluded from sensitive sessions.
But those of us with the luxury of a multi-decade perspective can attest policy and practice don’t always align.
Human factors—habit, convenience, and assumption—remain our biggest vulnerability.
This was unfortunately demonstrated by former president of the Swiss Confederation (2024) Viola Amherd, when she admitted during an interview with Swiss Public Television (SRF) in January 2024 that, although provided with an encrypted telephone, she chooses to use her iPhone instead.
While in-person or meeting discussions are a solid approach towards the discussion of sensitive topics, failing to adhere to device segregation practices unnecessarily exposes the country’s top leadership to intercept.
Additionally, a trail of breadcrumbs and clues leaking throughout business-as-usual conversations may tip up adversaries significant and valuable intelligence.
As with the previous pizza-box example, we may not realize trivial and innocuous activities or conversations can amount to much more.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The truth is, even within Switzerland’s layered federalism, we see inconsistency.
While Bern city has adopted Threema, the cantonal executive council still coordinates on WhatsApp.
The local culture often leans toward pragmatism: if WhatsApp works, why change it? Yet that very logic is what makes us vulnerable.
Encryption alone cannot compensate for weak verification, unclear boundaries between personal and professional use, or relaxed attitudes toward access control.
We might not have had a “Signalgate” moment yet, but the conditions for one exist here as well—particularly when decisions are rushed, and trust is assumed rather than confirmed.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>What we learned in 2025 is that technology doesn’t enforce discipline—people do.
And no system, no matter how Swiss, is immune to lapses if the people using it treat protocol as optional.
For Swiss institutions and companies alike, the challenge is not to adopt more apps—it’s to embed security awareness in everyday decisions.
We have the tools.
Now we need to reinforce the mindset.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#corporate-parallel-whatsapp-misuse-in-a-sensitive-business-setting" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h3 id="corporate-parallel-whatsapp-misuse-in-a-sensitive-business-setting" class="">
Corporate Parallel: WhatsApp Misuse in a Sensitive Business Setting
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h3>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>In early 2025, I witnessed an OPSEC breakdown during a client exchange on WhatsApp.
Added to a group chat with fourteen participants—including general managers from a major international firm and project managers from both sides—I watched as discussion quickly turned to implementation timelines, challenges, and sensitive project details.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>What was alarming: three unidentified phone numbers participated without anyone questioning their presence.
The implicit assumption—if they were added, they belonged—mirrored exactly the failure underlying Signalgate: blind trust in digital group membership without verification.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The timing was striking, as Signalgate had just broken in the news that week.
Fortunately, minimal persuasion was needed to shut down the WhatsApp group and redirect communication to secured corporate email, where identities could be verified and proper controls maintained.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#communication-security-technologies-and-limitations" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="communication-security-technologies-and-limitations" class="">
Communication Security Technologies and Limitations
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;a href="#signals-role-in-signalgate-the-limits-of-encryption" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h3 id="signals-role-in-signalgate-the-limits-of-encryption" class="">
Signal’s Role in Signalgate: The Limits of Encryption
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h3>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Signal is widely trusted for its end-to-end encryption, but the Signalgate breach highlighted its serious limitations for sensitive communication.
Messages are only protected in transit—once they reach a device, they are decrypted and fully exposed to anyone with access.
If a device is compromised by malware or left unlocked, encryption offers no defense.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Signal also lacks critical safeguards: there’s no robust identity verification for group members, no access controls, and no certification for handling classified data (such as FIPS 140).
In Signalgate, these weaknesses enabled the accidental inclusion of a journalist in a high-level national security thread, allowing real-time intelligence to be leaked, however, the data could have been exfiltrated, had the personal devices been compromised by foreign intelligence services.
We don’t yet know if this was the case, but we know, as reported by Vice President Vance himself, that his personal device was compromised in October of 2024 by Chinese intelligence agencies.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The core issue wasn’t a failure of technology, but of operational discipline.
Tools like Signal were never meant for command-and-control or strategic coordination.
When personal devices and casual apps are used for critical communication, true vulnerability isn’t the platform—it’s the people using it without policy, process, or accountability.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#sectera-viper-and-the-gap-between-civilian-and-government-comms" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h3 id="sectera-viper-and-the-gap-between-civilian-and-government-comms" class="">
Sectera, VIPER, and the Gap Between Civilian and Government Comms
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h3>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Government-classified communication systems like NSA’s STU-III, General Dynamics’ Sectera Edge, or VIPER phones are built with OPSEC as their foundation.
These devices—used by senior U.S.
and allied officials—feature hardened hardware, tamper-proof operating systems, multi-factor authentication, remote wiping capabilities, and classified-level encryption.
Physically separated from personal channels, they require distinct credentials, hardware tokens, or biometric access.
Their design premise is clear: don’t trust users to self-protect; enforce protection systematically.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Yet these tools have drawbacks.
They’re expensive, cumbersome, and unpopular with non-technical users, unable to match the intuitive appeal of iPhones—explaining Viola Amherd’s preference.
Officials often resort to Signal or WhatsApp precisely because hardened devices are less intuitive and slower.
This convenience gap encourages risky workarounds, especially under pressure.
Similarly, in corporate environments, secure collaboration platforms frequently lose to expedient solutions like Dropbox, Gmail, or Slack because official tools seem excessively rigid or complex.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Security needn’t sacrifice usability—it should accommodate actual work patterns.
Government-grade tools demonstrate that information integrity can coexist with practical functionality.
President Obama’s BlackBerry illustrates this balance.
Initially deemed too insecure, NSA engineers extensively modified it with hardware and software enhancements, transforming a consumer device into a hardened communication tool with encrypted messaging, vulnerable feature removal, and a closed ecosystem filtering communications through a vetted whitelist—creating a secure enclave within an insecure platform.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Despite highly restricted access—limited to a small, pre-approved group with layered controls—it functioned effectively because leadership demanded it.
Obama’s BlackBerry exemplified security enforcement that maintained speed, responsiveness, and usability.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#practical-opsec-recommendations-for-business" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="practical-opsec-recommendations-for-business" class="">
Practical OPSEC Recommendations for Business
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Organizations that treat OPSEC as a leadership function, not an IT function, will be best positioned to operate with confidence and control.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>For today’s corporate leaders, you likely would not have access to NSA hardened devices, nor may you have access to Sectera or Viper encrypted phones.
However, the following approach will facilitate stronger and more secure communications while on the go:&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#device-security" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h3 id="device-security" class="">
Device Security
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h3>
&lt;/a>
&lt;ol>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Device Segregation Strategy&lt;/strong> – Maintain separate devices for different sensitivity levels of information.
Consider having dedicated devices for your most sensitive communications that never leave corporate controls maintaining the same protection factor as your managed infrastructure.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Comprehensive Access Controls&lt;/strong> – Implement multi-factor authentication, biometric verification, and strong passwords on all devices.
Configure automatic device locking after brief periods of inactivity.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Supply Chain Security&lt;/strong> – Ensure that devices and software come from trusted sources and haven’t been compromised before reaching your organization.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;/ol>
&lt;a href="#communication-practices" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h3 id="communication-practices" class="">
Communication Practices
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h3>
&lt;/a>
&lt;ol start="4">
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Application Security Layers&lt;/strong> – Add individual application passwords to sensitive apps, creating multiple security layers an attacker would need to penetrate.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Data Minimization Practices&lt;/strong> – Limit the specific details shared in digital communications.
Ask whether exact times, locations, names, or numbers are truly necessary in each message.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Auto-Deletion Policies&lt;/strong> – Configure messaging platforms to automatically delete sensitive communications after they’ve served their purpose, reducing the persistent attack surface.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>*&lt;em>Public Conversation Discipline&lt;/em> – Be acutely aware of how far your voice carries in public spaces like trains, restaurants, and airport lounges.
Sensitive conversations overheard in public have compromised countless operations and business deals.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;/ol>
&lt;a href="#organizational-controls" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h3 id="organizational-controls" class="">
Organizational Controls
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h3>
&lt;/a>
&lt;ol start="8">
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Travel Security Protocols&lt;/strong> – Implement special procedures for international travel, especially to high-risk countries.
Consider using temporary “burner” devices when traveling to locations with sophisticated surveillance capabilities.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Regular Security Audits&lt;/strong> – Conduct periodic reviews of communication practices and security controls to identify and address emerging vulnerabilities.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Shadow IT Prevention&lt;/strong> – Provide approved, secure communication tools that meet user needs to prevent employees from turning to unauthorized applications.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Security Culture Development&lt;/strong> – Foster an organizational culture where security awareness is valued, and proper communications practices are consistently followed.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>&lt;strong>Environmental Security Awareness&lt;/strong> – Use privacy screens to prevent visual eavesdropping, be conscious of conversation volume in public spaces, and maintain awareness of who might be observing your activities.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;/ol>
&lt;p>The growing sophistication of surveillance capabilities means corporate leaders must recognize that they too may be targeted by advanced persistent threats, particularly when traveling internationally or working in strategic industries.
The case of Saudi dissident Jamal Khashoggi, tracked through compromised mobile devices before his murder, demonstrates the extreme risks posed by device exploitation.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#conclusion" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="conclusion" class="">
Conclusion
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Signalgate should not be viewed as an isolated government communications incident.
The same operational gaps, informal communication habits, and misplaced reliance on consumer-grade apps exist across boardrooms and executive suites worldwide.
The difference is only one of visibility—&lt;strong>government failures make headlines; corporate ones often remain hidden until it’s too late.&lt;/strong>&lt;/p>
&lt;p>At its core, OPSEC is not a technical feature or a compliance checkbox.
It is a mindset.
The tools matter, yes—but without disciplined leadership, clear policies, and a culture that understands why information protection matters, those tools will fail.
Businesses that want to thrive in a contested, surveilled, and competitive world must approach communication security with the same seriousness as financial controls or legal risk.
The future belongs to those who treat information as a strategic asset—and who protect it accordingly.
In 2025 and beyond, OPSEC must be elevated to the C-suite, embedded in day-to-day operations, and championed as a core leadership responsibility.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Looking for Switzerland’s cybersecurity talents in 2025</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/03/06/looking-for-switzerlands-cybersecurity-talents-in-2025/</link><pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2025 00:00:00 +0600</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/ECC2024_hu_9cd1f0857adf1433.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Alessandro Monachesi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/03/06/looking-for-switzerlands-cybersecurity-talents-in-2025/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Looking for Switzerland’s cybersecurity talents in 2025&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/alessandro-monachesi/avatar_hu_7b2b98baf937a64b.webp" alt="Alessandro Monachesi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Alessandro Monachesi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/ECC2024_hu_9cd1f0857adf1433.webp"
alt="Swiss Hacking Challenge group photo"
>&lt;p>A message to all cybersecurity talents in Switzerland: On March 1, the qualifiers for the Swiss Hacking Challenge (SHC) 2025 have started.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The SHC identifies and selects the country’s most skilled young cybersecurity talents to represent Switzerland at the European Cyber Security Challenge (ECSC).
In recent years, the Swiss National Hacking Team has consistently ranked among the top competitors.
In addition to selecting the national team, the Swiss Hacking Challenge also serves as the official SwissSkills qualifier in the field of cybersecurity.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The competition starts with an &lt;strong>online qualification phase, running from March 1 to May 1, 2025&lt;/strong>.
Participants will compete in a Jeopardy-style Capture-the-Flag (CTF) format, solving cybersecurity challenges individually.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The top ten competitors in each age group (Juniors: 14–20, Seniors: 21–25) with Swiss citizenship will qualify for the &lt;strong>onsite final, taking place on July 12–13, 2025&lt;/strong>.
The final will determine the composition of the Swiss National Hacking Team, which will represent Switzerland at ECSC 2025 in Warsaw, Poland, from October 6 to 10, 2025.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>However, everybody else is free to enter the qualifiers just for fun.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>More info on the &lt;a href="https://swiss-hacking-challenge.ch">SHC website&lt;/a>.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;em>The Swiss Hacking Challenge, Switzerland’s annual national hacking championship, is organized by the Swiss Cyber Storm association.&lt;/em>&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="my-8">
&lt;video class="max-w-full max-h-[60vh] mx-auto object-contain" controls>
&lt;source src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/videos/2025/shc2025.mp4" type="video/mp4">
Your browser does not support the video tag.
&lt;/video>
&lt;/figure></description></item><item><title>Resilience is key in a world gone mad – Swiss Cyber Storm 2025 motto and keynote speaker</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/02/27/resilience-is-key-in-a-world-gone-mad-swiss-cyber-storm-2025-motto-and-keynote-speaker/</link><pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2025 00:00:00 +2700</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2024/Swiss-Cyber-Storm-2024_0002_2400x1600_hu_a6d3975018e0292.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/02/27/resilience-is-key-in-a-world-gone-mad-swiss-cyber-storm-2025-motto-and-keynote-speaker/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Resilience is key in a world gone mad – Swiss Cyber Storm 2025 motto and keynote speaker&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2024/Swiss-Cyber-Storm-2024_0002_2400x1600_hu_a6d3975018e0292.webp"
alt="View of the main stage of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference"
>&lt;p>Since the US election, the whole world seems to be descending into chaos.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Under Biden a US threat against the territory of an allied nation would have been very hard to imagine.
Meanwhile, the new president is openly contemplating the use of force to invade Greenland.
On Monday, the US voted with North Korea against a UN General Assembly resolution condemning Russia for invading Ukraine, and the White House called President Trump the King.
The Old Continent and Switzerland have been caught off guard by this change in policy.
Everybody expected a fresh wind, but not on this scale.
It’s like everybody secured their roofs for a Beaufort 9 gale but the storm turned out to be a hurricane at Beaufort 12.
Russian TV pundits are applauding divisive US initiatives, while Elon Musk provided a unique business opportunity for phishers worldwide by announcing an email sent to all federal employees.
CISA and other government cyber initiatives such as NIST are being defunded, and the Starlink network used by Ukraine to defend its territory is now being actively used to pressure the country into submission.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>There is a lot of headless chickening going on, the information space is in turmoil, and we are no longer sure what is real and what is fake.
What facts are important and what are we missing in all the noise? It has become almost impossible to find the truth behind every headline.
It feels like everyone has gone crazy.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>When the world stops following familiar patterns, anticipating the future becomes increasingly difficult.
Planning ahead feels like a futile exercise, yet preparation becomes more important than ever.
In this time of uncertainty, resilience emerges as the essential skill and the central cyber security topic.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>That’s why the Swiss Cyber Storm focus theme for 2025 is&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#resilience-in-a-mad-mad-world" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="resilience-in-a-mad-mad-world" class="">
“Resilience in a mad, mad world”
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>How do we prepare our businesses and our customers for the challenges that lie ahead?&lt;/li>
&lt;li>How can we build architectures for resilience?&lt;/li>
&lt;li>How do we de-risk our relationship with an increasingly unreliable US technology sector?&lt;/li>
&lt;li>How do we secure our careers and even our personal lives against the blows that will come our way?&lt;/li>
&lt;li>How do we judge whom we can trust on a mid- and long-term horizon?&lt;/li>
&lt;li>How can we saveguard our assets in their cloud-native environments?&lt;/li>
&lt;li>What fallout do we have to expect from this perfect storm and how can we mitigate it?&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>Swiss Cyber Storm 2025 will explore these and other topics using our traditional approach: We will invite international speakers to look at issues from multiple angles.
They will separate the hype and panic from the hard facts, they will present novel approaches and they will help you change the way you look at the world.
And we will provide you with the time and the space to discuss it all with your peers.&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="flex justify-center m-8 mb-12">
&lt;a target="_blank" class="btn btn-lg btn-neutral !text-neutral-content no-underline"
href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=www.swisscyberstorm.com&amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;&amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">
Get your ticket here!
&lt;/a>
&lt;/div>
&lt;a href="#mark-barwinski-to-deliver-opening-keynote" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="mark-barwinski-to-deliver-opening-keynote" class="">
Mark Barwinski to deliver opening keynote
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>“Resilience in a mad, mad world” is also the title of Mark Barwinski’s opening keynote at Swiss Cyber Storm 2025, on October 28.
Mark’s presentation will set the stage and provide the foundation for the rest of the day.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="max-w-full ">
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/Mark-71-klein_hu_1ff6c232e1fa2d16.webp"
alt="Portrait of Mark Barwinski"
class="mx-auto w-auto h-auto max-h-[50vh] rounded-xs shadow-lg object-cover md:object-contain lg:object-scale-down"
loading="lazy"
>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;p>Mark Barwinski has over 20 years of leadership experience in cybersecurity spanning financial services, professional consulting, manufacturing, and government intelligence.
Mark began his career at the NSA, where he played a pivotal role in offensive and defensive cyber operations.
He was deployed across multiple continents and he also served in the Afghan war.
Moving on to PwC and Siemens, Mark revitalized cybersecurity teams, developed next-generation defenses, and orchestrated responses to nation-state threats.
As Global Head of Cyber Operations at UBS, he led security strategies, enhanced detection capabilities through machine learning, and optimized global SOC performance.
Today, Mark advises startups and other organizations, shaping global strategies, optimizing security operations, and reinforcing technical processes.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Beyond his corporate leadership, Mark is a dedicated cybersecurity advocate and writer who keeps a close eye on the evolving geopolitical security landscape.
On top, Mark is an avid sailor.
He is currently preparing for a possible Pacific Northwest Passage expedition in the coming years.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="max-w-full ">
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2025/IMG_0198-klein_hu_fb08ba5037b7cebe.webp"
alt="Mark, sailing from Iceland to Norway"
class="mx-auto w-auto h-auto max-h-[50vh] rounded-xs shadow-lg object-cover md:object-contain lg:object-scale-down"
loading="lazy"
>
&lt;figcaption class="text-center text-sm text-gray-600 mt-2 italic md:text-base lg:text-lg">
Mark, sailing from Iceland to Norway
&lt;/figcaption>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;div class="flex justify-center m-8 mb-12">
&lt;a target="_blank" class="btn btn-lg btn-neutral !text-neutral-content no-underline"
href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=www.swisscyberstorm.com&amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;&amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">
Get tickets for Swiss Cyber Storm 2025!
&lt;/a>
&lt;/div></description></item><item><title>Your feedback to Swiss Cyber Storm 2024</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/02/07/your-feedback-to-swiss-cyber-storm-2024/</link><pubDate>Fri, 07 Feb 2025 00:00:00 +0700</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2024/Swiss-Cyber-Storm-2024_0017-Speakers_2400x1600_hu_d1e167d8eaf5e148.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2025/02/07/your-feedback-to-swiss-cyber-storm-2024/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Your feedback to Swiss Cyber Storm 2024&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2024/Swiss-Cyber-Storm-2024_0017-Speakers_2400x1600_hu_d1e167d8eaf5e148.webp"
alt="View of the main stage of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference with a lineup of speakers"
>&lt;p>We’re a bit late with the conference feedback for Swiss Cyber Storm 2024, but I don’t want to launch 2025 without a proper and transparent review.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We received 62 responses, which is above 15%, an above average feedback rate for our conference.
One reason could be the promise to give away a free ticket for SCS 2025 to those people who fill out the feedback form and leave their email address (so we can pick them).
Said winner has been chosen and I think it’s something we’ll do again this year.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#overall-impression-of-the-swiss-cyber-storm-conference" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="overall-impression-of-the-swiss-cyber-storm-conference" class="">
Overall impression of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This is the first question, also meant to break the ice.
It’s a multiple-choice question and we stick to the same wording every year.
This gives us some baseline for the quality of the event:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>57 % (2023: 54 %) It was a very interesting and cool event, keep it up and I’ll be back next year.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>37 % (39 %) It was quite good – I will consider attending next year&lt;/li>
&lt;li>6 % (7 %) It was okay, but I probably won’t go again.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>0 % (0 %) Bad, I won’t go again&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>When we take the first two responses and the latter two together to get a positive/negative sentiment of the conference, we end up with the following numbers:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>2024: 94 % positive / 6 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2023: 93 % positive / 7 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2022: 95 % positive / 5 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2021: 96 % positive / 4 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2020: no conference&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2019: 91 % positive / 9 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2018: 91 % positive / 9 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2017: 89 % positive / 11 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>So, very positive, like it usually is from this perspective.&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="flex justify-center m-8 mb-12">
&lt;a target="_blank" class="btn btn-lg btn-neutral !text-neutral-content no-underline"
href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=www.swisscyberstorm.com&amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;&amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">
Get tickets for Swiss Cyber Storm 2025!
&lt;/a>
&lt;/div>
&lt;a href="#average-speaker-rating" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="average-speaker-rating" class="">
Average speaker rating
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We ask our audience to rate all the speakers individually.
We don’t share this information publicly for obvious reasons but we’re open to recommend speakers to other conferences (-&amp;gt; just get in touch).
What we also do, though, is to calculate the average or mean speaker rating which gives us a pretty good idea of the quality of the work of the program committee.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The rating goes from &lt;em>1 – bad&lt;/em> to &lt;em>2 – average&lt;/em> to &lt;em>3 – good&lt;/em> to &lt;em>4 – very good&lt;/em>.
Our speakers came in at 3.20, which is the 2nd best rating ever (after the 2021 conference where the audience was super excited to have a conference at all!)&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>2024: 3.20&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2023: 3.02&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2022: 3.19&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2021: 3.34 (a fanboy audience with less attendees than usual)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2020: no conference&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2019: 3.04&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2018: 3.04&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2017: 2.96&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>In 2023, we had two remote presentations and two weak speakers who did not perform very well.
This pulled down the numbers.
We had no such thing in 2024, and the numbers rebounded.
We are very pleased with this result.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="max-w-full ">
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2024/Swiss-Cyber-Storm-2024_0019-Audience_2400x1600_hu_652455701bb87f4e.webp"
alt="Around 400 security experts and enthusiasts took part in Swiss Cyber Storm 2024"
class="mx-auto w-auto h-auto max-h-[50vh] rounded-xs shadow-lg object-cover md:object-contain lg:object-scale-down"
loading="lazy"
>
&lt;figcaption class="text-center text-sm text-gray-600 mt-2 italic md:text-base lg:text-lg">
Around 400 security experts and enthusiasts took part in Swiss Cyber Storm 2024
&lt;/figcaption>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;a href="#choice-of-the-focus-theme-the-ai-revolution" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="choice-of-the-focus-theme-the-ai-revolution" class="">
Choice of the focus theme „The AI Revolution”
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>95 % of our audience thought we had picked a good focus theme (“Good choice”) while 3 % did not like it.
Another 2 % were not aware there was a focus theme at all, which is always a bit puzzling.
But thanks for the honest answer.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>95 % is the best score we ever got in this category.
In hindsight, it was a homerun of course.
But given we picked the focus theme in January, there was a substantial risk people would be fed up with AI by Autumn.
We’ve been very lucky this was not the case.
Not at all, apparently.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>2024: 95 % (“The AI Revolution”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2023: 93 % (“The Human Factor”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2022: 92 % (“Digital Identities and How to Secure Them”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2021: 88 % (“Securing the Supply Chain”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2020: no conference (but it would have been “E-Health” 🙂)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2019: 83 % (“Embracing the Hackers”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2018: 78 % (“Trust”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2017: 67 % (“E-Voting”, but not very prominent)&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>95% will be hard to beat, but the topic we picked for 2025 might just do it!&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#food-and-beverages" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="food-and-beverages" class="">
Food and beverages
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We no longer asked about the raffle, but we still have two questions about the food.
65 % (59 % in 2023) thought it was great, 29 % (27 %) found it good and 6 % (11 %) thought it was OK.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Over 85 % (80 % in 2023) said there was enough food and 13 % (14 %) even said there was way too much.
2 % responded it was barely enough (4 %).
Something to keep an eye on since it’s really hard to order the right amount of food, especially for the standing dinner after the conference.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#where-did-people-hear-about-the-conference" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="where-did-people-hear-about-the-conference" class="">
Where did people hear about the conference?
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>These numbers are always very interesting.
Unlike with other questions, the answers here are not very stable.
And they seem to be quite hard to influence.
The thing that is clear is that colleagues are a very strong motivator for our audience.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>53 % (2023: 58 %) – I’ve attended before&lt;/li>
&lt;li>26 % (16 %) – Colleagues&lt;/li>
&lt;li>10 % (15 %) – Through communication from a sponsor&lt;/li>
&lt;li>5 % (2 %) – Through a partner organization (InsomniHack, SATW, Area41, etc.)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2 % (2 %) – Online articles in the media or blogs&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2 % (2 %) – Social media&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2 % (3 %) – Other&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;figure class="max-w-full ">
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2024/Swiss-Cyber-Storm-2024_0018-Keynote_2400x1600_hu_b1e82291adb8b50c.webp"
alt="Daniel Miessler delivering the opening keynote to Swiss Cyber Storm 2024"
class="mx-auto w-auto h-auto max-h-[50vh] rounded-xs shadow-lg object-cover md:object-contain lg:object-scale-down"
loading="lazy"
>
&lt;figcaption class="text-center text-sm text-gray-600 mt-2 italic md:text-base lg:text-lg">
Daniel Miessler delivering the opening keynote to Swiss Cyber Storm 2024
&lt;/figcaption>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;a href="#speaker-suggestions" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="speaker-suggestions" class="">
Speaker suggestions
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We contacted a few speakers suggested in the 2023 feedback, but unfortunately, none of them worked out.
We’re keeping some of them on the list for the future.
New additions are neuroscientist Andrew Huberman, Raffaello D’Andrea, and Rob van der Heer.
Look them up if you are not familiar with these names.
We’ll keep them in mind for future issues.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The next focus topic
We asked this for the first time to see what we might get from the audience.
Top suggestions included two previously used focus topics (that’s OK, we’re aware that only very few participants attended every edition) and then risk management.
Security culture is also very hot, as is quantum.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>These would all be fine topics.
But none of these proposals will be the 2025 focus theme.
We’re soon ready to give the real one away, so stay tuned!&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#summary" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="summary" class="">
Summary
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>With a few numbers being slightly down in 2023, we rebounded in 2024 and we’re as eager as ever for the 2025 edition.
Big news will be coming in a few weeks.
So, stay tuned and don’t forget to get your &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=blog-2025-02-07-1&amp;amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect%22">early bird ticket&lt;/a> in time for the conference on October 28, 2025!&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>A first look at this year’s speakers</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2024/07/09/a-first-look-at-this-years-speakers/</link><pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2024 00:00:00 +0900</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2018/swiss-cyber-storm_2018_schedule_big_compressed_hu_38ca0401232ade7c.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2024/07/09/a-first-look-at-this-years-speakers/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>A first look at this year’s speakers&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2018/swiss-cyber-storm_2018_schedule_big_compressed_hu_38ca0401232ade7c.webp"
alt="The audience of the Swiss Cyber Storm Arena track"
>&lt;p>We’ve made it – just before the summer break, the program for this year’s Swiss Cyber Storm Conference on 22 October on the topic of “The AI Revolution” and other hot security topics is online.
In addition to the already announced opening keynote by AI thought leader Daniel Miessler, we would therefore like to introduce you to some more speakers.
Five of them, here they are.&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="flex justify-center m-8 mb-12">
&lt;a target="_blank" class="btn btn-lg btn-neutral !text-neutral-content no-underline"
href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=www.swisscyberstorm.com&amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;&amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">
Get your ticket today!
&lt;/a>
&lt;/div>
&lt;p>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/eva-wolfangel/">Eva Wolfangel&lt;/a> is a is a freelance journalist and speaker with a long-standing interest in privacy and security. She regularly presents at CCC and has an impressive track record when it comes to investigative journalism. Eva strongly advocates for transparency and accountability in data handling practices – a stance that also underlies her AI talk: “When chatbots talk too much: the risks and rewards of AI manipulation”.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/lukasz-olejnik/">Lukasz Olejnik&lt;/a> is a very active author with an exceptionally broad portfolio that stretches from technical analysis of browser tracking mechanisms to threat intelligence to online propaganda. He is a cyberwarfare advisor at the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and has worked on several W3C standards. Lukasz will present his newest book (“Propaganda: From disinformation and influence to operations and information warfare”) at the conference, in which, among other things, he discusses the use of AI methods to create a system for information operations.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/david-rosenthal/">David Rosenthal&lt;/a>, one of the best-known Swiss lawyers in the area of cybersecurity, is a strong presenter and able to bridge the gap between techies and lawyers with hands-on experience. David is known for sharing very practical guidelines and decision guides for legal handling of privacy questions (e. g. cloud storage of sensitive data). His approach to AI regulation is equally intriguing. At Swiss Cyberstorm, he will give security people an understanding of how lawyers are seeing AI.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/ruben-santamarta/">Ruben Santamarta&lt;/a> is a highly respected security researcher with a track record of uncovering and disclosing vulnerabilities in critical systems and devices, often critical infrastructures. Among other, he has found several issues in Swiss Post’s e-voting system. His latest work focuses on the security of nuclear power plants. As part of this research, he also looked at several Swiss sites. While the disclosure process is still going on, Ruben has promised to lay it all out at Swiss Cyber Storm.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/laura-bell-main/">Laura Bell Main&lt;/a>, founder of safestack.io and former developer for CERN brings a unique perspective to the security discourse. Her take is: IT should be secure by design, and you secure it by talking to the UX designers that will define how people work with it. If the designers get it right, users will be led towards following security best practices. If they don’t, insecurity will be the default and achieving security will be very hard for everybody – especially for the users and their sensitive data.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Other enlisted speakers so far are &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/maya-bundt/">Maya Bundt&lt;/a> (multiple board member and chair of the NCS steering committee), &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/cornelia-puhze/">Cornelia Puhze&lt;/a> (Switch), and &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/matt-tesauro/">Matt Tesauro&lt;/a> (DefectDojo, OWASP).&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We will complete the &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/schedule/">conference schedule&lt;/a> in the coming months.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>The AI Revolution – Swiss Cyber Storm 2024</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2024/04/02/the-ai-revolution-swiss-cyber-storm-2024/</link><pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2024 00:00:00 +0200</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/033_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_7bab8fc40d37371.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Alessandro Monachesi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2024/04/02/the-ai-revolution-swiss-cyber-storm-2024/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>The AI Revolution – Swiss Cyber Storm 2024&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/alessandro-monachesi/avatar_hu_7b2b98baf937a64b.webp" alt="Alessandro Monachesi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Alessandro Monachesi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/033_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_7bab8fc40d37371.webp"
alt="The audience of the Swiss Cyber Storm Arena track"
>&lt;p>Artificial intelligence as a topic may seem hardly original and the number one buzzword everywhere.
But it would be negligent not to make the tension between AI and cybersecurity the focus of this year’s Swiss Cyber Storm.
Our motto “The AI Revolution” reflects the reality that AI is shaping the security world anew – let’s take the bull by the horns and go straight at it!&lt;/p>
&lt;p>In cybersecurity, the topic of AI is interesting from the following three angles:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Attackers are leveraging AI to hit you faster and harder&lt;/li>
&lt;li>AI promises to strengthen our defenses and make incident response faster and more efficient&lt;/li>
&lt;li>The security of AI systems is a major concern – their contribution to the attack surface is poorly understood and the subject of research.&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>We will examine all three of them at Swiss Cyber Storm 2024 and provide you with the latest insights into threats, tools, capabilities and limitations of AI available today.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#opening-keynote-by-daniel-miessler" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="opening-keynote-by-daniel-miessler" class="">
Opening keynote by Daniel Miessler
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We are delighted that Daniel Miessler agreed to kick off the conference with a thought-provoking talk focused on the intersection of humans, cybersecurity and AI.
Daniel Miessler is an information security professional, writer, and founder and CEO of &lt;a href="https://danielmiessler.com">Unsupervised Learning&lt;/a>.
Unsupervised Learning is a product, services, and media company with the declared mission of “increasing security and eudaimonia on planet Earth”.
The company counts prominent organizations such as Apple, IOActive, Robinhood, HPE, and the US Army among its clients.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Further details about speakers, talks, and the conference will be unveiled in due course on this website.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Be an early 🐦 and get your ticket for &lt;a href="https://pretix.eu/scs/2024/">430 instead of 490 CHF&lt;/a> (offer valid until May 31).&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="flex justify-center m-8 mb-12">
&lt;a target="_blank" class="btn btn-lg btn-neutral !text-neutral-content no-underline"
href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=www.swisscyberstorm.com&amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;&amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">
Get your ticket today!
&lt;/a>
&lt;/div></description></item><item><title>The Swiss Hacking Challenge 2024 has started</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2024/03/01/the-swiss-hacking-challenge-2024-has-started/</link><pubDate>Fri, 01 Mar 2024 00:00:00 +0100</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/DSC07101_hu_9a15c08ec5c0fa5d.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Alessandro Monachesi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2024/03/01/the-swiss-hacking-challenge-2024-has-started/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>The Swiss Hacking Challenge 2024 has started&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/alessandro-monachesi/avatar_hu_7b2b98baf937a64b.webp" alt="Alessandro Monachesi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Alessandro Monachesi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/DSC07101_hu_9a15c08ec5c0fa5d.webp"
alt="Swiss Hacking Challenge group photo"
>&lt;p>Great news for all young Swiss cybersecurity specialists:
Qualifications for the Swiss national hacking team start this Friday, March 1, and will run through April 30 with the finals on July 13/14.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>To join the Swiss Hacking Challenge (SHC) and compete for a place in the official team, you need to be aged 15-25 and be a Swiss citizen.
However, everybody is free to enter the qualifiers just for fun.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The most successful partcipants in the qualifications will be chosen for the national team which will then participate in the European Cyber Security Challenge (ECSC) in October in Turin, Italy.
In last year’s ECSC, team Switzerland finished second – the highest placing for a Swiss national team so far.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>You can find more about the SHC on &lt;a href="https://swiss-hacking-challenge.ch">their website&lt;/a>.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The Swiss Hacking Challenge, Switzerland’s annual national hacking championship, is organized by the Swiss Cyber Storm association.
Furthermore, the SHC is the official partner of ICT-Berufsbildung Schweiz for qualification in cybersecurity for participation in SwissSkills and WorldSkills.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="my-8">
&lt;video class="max-w-full max-h-[60vh] mx-auto object-contain" controls>
&lt;source src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/videos/2024/SHC_2024-1.mp4" type="video/mp4">
Your browser does not support the video tag.
&lt;/video>
&lt;/figure></description></item><item><title>The 2023 conference feedback report is here</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/11/16/the-2023-conference-feedback-report-is-here/</link><pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:00:00 +1600</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/017_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_1cc34c5725dc9e8d.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/11/16/the-2023-conference-feedback-report-is-here/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>The 2023 conference feedback report is here&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/017_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_1cc34c5725dc9e8d.webp"
alt="Christian Folini opening the 10th edition of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference"
>&lt;p>We had a very successful 10th edition of Swiss Cyber Storm.
Shortly after the conference ended, we sent out the feedback forms and received 43 responses, which is 10-15 % return rate, which is in line with previous years.
We send more or less the same questions every year, so we get consistent responses and we can identify trends and compare the individual editions.
We also included two questions on the catering for the first time.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>As usual, we make the feedback transparent to a certain extent.
Apparently, we are not publishing the scores that the speakers received.
But you will find the mean rating below.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So let’s dive right in:&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#overall-impression-of-the-swiss-cyber-storm-conference" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="overall-impression-of-the-swiss-cyber-storm-conference" class="">
Overall impression of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This is the first question, also meant to break the ice.
It’s a multiple choice question and we stick to the same wording every year.
This gives us some baseline of the quality of the event:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>54 % (2022: 59 %) – It was a very interesting and cool event, keep it up and I’ll be there next year&lt;/li>
&lt;li>39 % (36 %) – It was quite good – I consider attending next year&lt;/li>
&lt;li>7 % (5 %) – It was ok but I probably won’t be there again&lt;/li>
&lt;li>0 % (0 %) – Bad, I won’t be there again&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>With visitor numbers being more or less on par with the previous edition, we can see a slightly less bright look of the conference.
When we group the top two categories into positive and the other two categories as negative, and then compare with previous years, we get the following:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>2023: 93 % positive / 7 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2022: 95 % positive / 5 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2021: 96 % positive / 4 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2020: no conference&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2019: 91 % positive / 9 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2018: 91 % positive / 9 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2017: 89 % positive / 11 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>So you could read this as going back to pre-Covid levels and thus a more realistic perspective of the event.
Or we did slightly less good than in previous years.
Maybe a mix of both.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#average-speaker-rating" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="average-speaker-rating" class="">
Average speaker rating
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We are asking our audience to rate all the speakers individually.
We are not sharing that information in public for obvious reasons but we’re open to recommend speakers to other conferences (-&amp;gt; just get in touch).
What we also do, though, is to calculate the average or mean speaker rating which gives us a pretty good idea of the quality of the work of the program committee.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The rating goes from &lt;em>1 – bad&lt;/em> to &lt;em>2 – average&lt;/em> to &lt;em>3 – good&lt;/em> to &lt;em>4 – very good&lt;/em>.
Our speakers came in at 3.02, which is still good, but less good than the previous editions.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>2023: 3.02&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2022: 3.19&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2021: 3.34 (a fanboy audience with less attendees than usually)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2020: no conference&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2019: 3.04&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2018: 3.04&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2017: 2.96&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>We had 1-2 speakers that really did not leave much of an impression with the audience and the two remote presentations seemed less interesting than the on-site ones.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I’m inclined to say our focus theme was about as un-technical as a security conference can possibly be.
This made it a bit more difficult to appreciate some of the speakers for their very good content.
This is also visible in the free form feedback.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But either way, the average 2023 speaker was rated slightly lower than the one from previous years.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="max-w-full ">
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/207_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_e2bdd953a26f1380.webp"
alt="Yanya Viskovich delivering the closing keynote to Swiss Cyber Storm 2023"
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loading="lazy"
>
&lt;figcaption class="text-center text-sm text-gray-600 mt-2 italic md:text-base lg:text-lg">
Yanya Viskovich delivering the closing keynote to Swiss Cyber Storm 2023
&lt;/figcaption>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;a href="#choice-of-the-focus-theme-the-human-factor" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="choice-of-the-focus-theme-the-human-factor" class="">
Choice of the focus theme “The Human Factor”
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>93 % of our audience thought we had picked a good focus theme (“Good choice”) and 5 % did not like it.
Another 2 % was not aware there was a focus theme at all.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>These numbers are even better than previous years, with the positive feedback as follows:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>2023: 93 % (“The Human Factor”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2022: 92 % (“Digital Identities and How to Secure Them”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2021: 88 % (“Securing the Supply Chain”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2020: no conference (but it would have been “E-Health” 🙂&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2019: 83 % (“Embracing the Hackers”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2018: 78 % (“Trust”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2017: 67 % (“E-Voting”, but not very prominent)&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>I would argue that almost everybody agrees the human factor is key for IT security.
But as discussed with the speakers, it’s more difficult to relate with the speakers, since so much sounds like common sense and things you seem to have heard before somewhere.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#where-did-you-hear-about-swiss-cyber-storm" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="where-did-you-hear-about-swiss-cyber-storm" class="">
Where did you hear about Swiss Cyber Storm
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>59 % (2022: 58 %) – I’ve attended before&lt;/li>
&lt;li>30 % (16 %) – Colleagues&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2 % (15 %) – Via communication by a sponsor&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2 % ( 3 %) – Via a partner organisation (InsomniHack, SATW, Area41, etc.)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2 % ( 8 %) – Online articles in the media or blogs&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2 % ( 0 %) – Social Media&lt;/li>
&lt;li>3 % ( 0 %) – Other&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>We see the regular returning audience and colleagues took the position the sponsors had last year.
Partnerships and social media does not play a big role for selling tickets.
In fact we did an experiment with LinkedIn ads the first time this year.
With almost no effect.
We’ll continue to discuss this internally, but advertising for a security conference is very hard in Switzerland.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#did-you-like-the-raffle" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="did-you-like-the-raffle" class="">
Did you like the Raffle?
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The raffle is a way to get the audience engaged with the sponsors.
A detailed explanation is here.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>54 % – Yes, that was fun&lt;/li>
&lt;li>43 % – Neutral&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2 % – What raffle?&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>This is very good feedback for the raffle.
It’s been more negative in the past, so I think we found a decent balance between making it known it exists and getting on everybody’s nerves with a prominent position for the raffle.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="max-w-full ">
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/228_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_5365bb6bf27b78a5.webp"
alt="The Lego set is always the first prize to go in the Swiss Cyber Storm raffle – and Pascal Fouquet of the Swiss Pirate Party a very happy winner"
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loading="lazy"
>
&lt;figcaption class="text-center text-sm text-gray-600 mt-2 italic md:text-base lg:text-lg">
The Lego set is always the first prize to go in the Swiss Cyber Storm raffle – and Pascal Fouquet of the Swiss Pirate Party a very happy winner
&lt;/figcaption>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;a href="#was-there-enough-food--beverages-served" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="was-there-enough-food--beverages-served" class="">
Was there enough food &amp;amp; beverages served?
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We asked this question for the first time.
The responses vary, but not as wild as we feared.
The difficulty is to make enough food and drinks available at the right moment and in a way everybody has access to them.
In a hall crowded with hundreds of people it may easily look like there was not enough food when it’s in fact just on the other side of the hall.
I think the numbers mean we did ok (with quite a few desserts being left behind in the evening).&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>14 % – Way too much&lt;/li>
&lt;li>80 % – Enough for everyone&lt;/li>
&lt;li>4 % – Barely enough&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2 % – Way too little&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;a href="#how-was-the-selection-and-quality-of-the-food--beverages" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="how-was-the-selection-and-quality-of-the-food--beverages" class="">
How was the selection and quality of the food &amp;amp; beverages?
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Another new question, and again one with favorable responses:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>2 % – Bad&lt;/li>
&lt;li>11 % – Okay&lt;/li>
&lt;li>27 % – Good&lt;/li>
&lt;li>59 % – Great&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>After yearlong problems with the catering, things ran smoothly in 2022 for the first time and I get the impression the kitchen was equally successful this year.
I think this noteworthy, also since we had a vegan option that was displayed on par with the meat dish at lunch.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#speaker-proposals" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="speaker-proposals" class="">
Speaker proposals
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We’re going fully circle with previous keynote speaker Troy Hunt being proposed as future speaker.
Brian Krebs was mentioned the way he usually is and a first vote for Meredith Whittaker from Signal: Great choice, she’s on our wishlist.
Also two nominations for Lisa Forte.
Duely noted.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#freeform-feedback" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="freeform-feedback" class="">
Freeform Feedback
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The freeform feedback always adds color and perspective to the numbers presented above.
We had people being very thankful for the vegan and vegetarian options with the food and other people complain bitterly about the lack of these options.
(As explained above, it’s very much a question of making the right food available to everyone at the right moment.) And also thank you for the positive feedback for the wine: Much appreciated, the anniversary champagne and wine were selected in a diligent process and we see this paid off.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Several people note they were tired by the repeated tech problems with the live demos.
That feedback is warranted.
We have never done much live hacking at SCS and when several speakers approached us with their plan, we did not anticipate the problems enough.
Critical feedback accepted.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>A noteworthy response was that the venue did not provide a cyber security atmosphere, unlike CCC for example.
If you think a security conference needs to be dark and red and hackerish, then I fear we are not on the same page on how good security looks.
After listening to our Human Factor speakers
this is even more true.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#summary" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="summary" class="">
Summary
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We had a very successful conference.
We are happy most of our audience plans to return in 2024 and when the feedback forms were extremely positive in 2021 and 2022, it all feels more realistic again.
Thank you for bringing us down to earth again.
SCS audience is the best!&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="max-w-full ">
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/217_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_a1eec7e24f634329.webp"
alt="The organizational team of Swiss Cyber Storm 2023 (President Bernhard Tellenbach missing, since he attended the ECSC finals in Norway)"
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loading="lazy"
>
&lt;figcaption class="text-center text-sm text-gray-600 mt-2 italic md:text-base lg:text-lg">
The organizational team of Swiss Cyber Storm 2023 (President Bernhard Tellenbach missing, since he attended the ECSC finals in Norway)
&lt;/figcaption>
&lt;/figure></description></item><item><title>Switzerland shines at the European Cyber Security Challenge 2023</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/10/27/switzerland-shines-at-the-european-cyber-security-challenge-2023/</link><pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2023 00:00:00 +2700</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/NTNUDAY4_-25_hu_6bfc067d19954738.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Alessandro Monachesi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/10/27/switzerland-shines-at-the-european-cyber-security-challenge-2023/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Switzerland shines at the European Cyber Security Challenge 2023&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/alessandro-monachesi/avatar_hu_7b2b98baf937a64b.webp" alt="Alessandro Monachesi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Alessandro Monachesi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/NTNUDAY4_-25_hu_6bfc067d19954738.webp"
alt="Team Switzerland on stage receiving their price for winnig the second place at the European Cyber Security Challenge"
>&lt;p>The Swiss national team has finished second at the European Hacking Championships in Norway with 28 participants.
It is the highest placing for a Swiss national team so far.
The young cybersecurity specialists scored points thanks to a consistent performance and their strong strategic skills, remaining composed under pressure.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;a href="http://www.swiss-hacking-challenge.ch">Team Switzerland&lt;/a> has finished the prestigious &lt;a href="https://ecsc.eu">European Cyber Security Challenge (ECSC)&lt;/a> 2023 in Hamar, Norway, in second place, marking a milestone in its participation in international cybersecurity competitions.
It is the highest placing ever achieved by a Swiss national hacking team.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The event, which spanned three action-packed days, pitted Europe’s best young cyber talent from 28 countries against each other in a series of complex tasks.
Participants had to solve security-related tasks in areas such as web security, mobile security, crypto puzzles, reverse engineering and forensics, earning points for their solutions.
The victory went to Team Germany, with Denmark coming in third.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="max-w-full ">
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/P1230331_hu_8310973bb85626c8.webp"
alt="Team /mnt/ain (m0unt41n) at work"
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loading="lazy"
>
&lt;figcaption class="text-center text-sm text-gray-600 mt-2 italic md:text-base lg:text-lg">
Team /mnt/ain (m0unt41n) at work
&lt;/figcaption>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;p>Team Switzerland, which competed under the name “Team /mnt/ain (m0unt41n)” and is made up of a group of the country’s best young hackers and security experts chosen at the Swiss Hacking Challenge, demonstrated remarkable skill and perseverance throughout the competition.
It showed a consistent performance, but the decisive factor for the good final result was its strong strategic skills and great composure under pressure.
“This victory is not only due to our technical skills,” explains Nicola Bühler, the team captain.
“It is equally an expression of how we came together as a team, supported each other and stayed focused under great pressure.
I’m proud of every team member.”&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Team coach Marc Bollhalder highlighted the significance of the excellent final result, saying, “Second place at ECSC 2023 is a testament to the talent and potential we have in Switzerland in cybersecurity.” He added that the Swiss team’s success will not only serve as an inspiration for budding cybersecurity experts in this country, it also underscores the critical importance of cybersecurity skills in an increasingly digital world and the need for continued investment in this area.
“It’s important that we continue to nurture and support these young talents to secure our country’s digital future.”&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="max-w-full ">
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2023/DSC07101_hu_9a15c08ec5c0fa5d.webp"
alt="Team /mnt/ain (m0unt41n) at the start of the tournament"
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loading="lazy"
>
&lt;figcaption class="text-center text-sm text-gray-600 mt-2 italic md:text-base lg:text-lg">
Team /mnt/ain (m0unt41n) at the start of the tournament
&lt;/figcaption>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;a href="#about-the-swiss-hacking-challenge" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="about-the-swiss-hacking-challenge" class="">
About the Swiss Hacking Challenge
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The Swiss Hacking Challenge (SHC) is Switzerland’s annual national hacking championship.
It is organized by the Swiss Cyber Storm association, a non-profit organization that also hosts the annual Swiss Cyber Storm Security Conference.
The Swiss national hacking team is ultimately recruited from the SHC’s most successful participants, who compete as Team Switzerland at international tournaments such as the European Cyber Security Challenge (ECSC).
The SHC is the official partner of ICT-Berufsbildung Schweiz for qualification in cybersecurity for participation in SwissSkills and WorldSkills.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Insights into the SCS program around “The Human Factor”</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/09/04/insights-into-the-scs-program-around-the-human-factor/</link><pubDate>Mon, 04 Sep 2023 00:00:00 +0400</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/166_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_8ccd32a9465ee12c.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/09/04/insights-into-the-scs-program-around-the-human-factor/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Insights into the SCS program around “The Human Factor”&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/166_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_8ccd32a9465ee12c.webp"
alt="The networking area at Swiss Cyber Storm"
>&lt;p>Prepare for an amazing keynote at our anniversary Swiss Cyber Storm conference on October 24! We are very happy to announce that &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/eva-galperin/">Eva Galperin&lt;/a>, a renowned advocate for privacy rights and a leading voice in the battle against big tech, will be starting our conference.
As Director of Cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Eva brings years of experience defending our privacy and an intriguing focus on fighting stalkerware.
Her talk offers a fresh perspective on the security industry and what’s at stake these days.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>In the end, it’s all about humans.
It’s humans that create computer systems, it’s humans that use computer systems and it’s humans that instruct AI to abuse computer systems (if they are too lazy to do it themselves).
Whatever the hard problem in cybersecurity, it’s always the human factor that makes it such a challenge.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>That’s why we chose “The Human Factor” as our 2023 Swiss Cyber Storm motto.
You can expect a rich interpretation of this focus theme with talks looking at humans and computer interaction from very different angles.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/cristina-lekati/">Christina Lekati&lt;/a> explains time consuming spear phishing campaigns against high profile victims – and how this may become a commonplace when AI takes over the grooming period.
She shares insight into virtual personae that took months if not a full year to build rapport with individual board members of large enterprises.
And she will also tell us what she recommends these targeted individuals.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/edzo-botjes/">Edzo Botjes&lt;/a> has used Nassim Taleb’s concept of anti-fragility and applied it to cloud architecture: How can we design systems, that become stronger when attacked? His PhD is almost finished now and we’re one of the first conferences, where he speaks about his findings.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>A regular at Swiss Cyber Storm is &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/stefan-luders/">Stefan Lüders&lt;/a>, the CISO of CERN.
A pragmatic user of all new technology, he is facing an over-complex architecture that threatens to overwhelm the capabilities of his operation.
While many companies do not admit that they are no longer on top of things, Stefan has the guts to point the finger where it hurts.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Two years after our “Securing the Supply Chain” focus, Swiss company Xplain illustrates the fact that there are untrustworthy suppliers of closed-source code systems.
&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/tim-blazytko/">Tim Blazytko&lt;/a> is an expert in reverse engineering and malware analysis.
He gives us an insight into the options you have to analyze a black box and to learn if it might contain malware.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Another technical talk comes from &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/joe-slowik/">Joe Slowik&lt;/a>.
Joe is a very well known incident responder and threat hunter.
He joins us to explain how attribution is getting harder and harder since attackers, namely APT, no longer have a unique signature.
The techniques, the exploits, the tool set, the methodology, everything is converging and a growing number of attackers no longer download any code at all, they use locally installed tools for most of their work.
This results in a situation where defenders no longer know whom they are really facing.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/mauro-verderosa/">Mauro Verderosa&lt;/a> returns the focus to the human factor.
He is not only the key figure in the Geneva “Swiss-CyberSecurity” community, but also a hard boiled expert for authentication processes.
We need authentication and we still need passwords.
Multi-factor is uses as a remedy but even if you leave text messages behind, there are various pitfalls when deploying these schemes.
Join Mauro for a deep insight and advice how to improve your setup.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>A similar angle is used by &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/christine-bejerasco/">Christine Bejerasco&lt;/a> from Finnish WithSecure: How can we design secure systems with the user in mind? Admittedly, we can continue to blame all insecurity on the user, but that’s a poor execution of our job.
Good security architecture means to take the users and the psychology into account and design systems, so that users will use them in a secure way: secure by default.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>And, finally, &lt;a href="https://2024.swisscyberstorm.com/speaker/joseph-da-silva/">Jospeh Da Silva&lt;/a>:
Joe who wrote his PhD about the roles and perceptions of CISOs in various enterprises.
It’s obvious that a CISO can be a teacher and at the same time an enforcer of security policies.
The “no way” CISO is a familiar figure after all.
But did you ever think of the CISO as a messenger from a magic world the C-Level suite can not grasp? That he can be a soothsayer sharing prophecies of daemons and all sorts of evil that tries to break into the enterprise? Who has the authority to dispel the message and whom they’re going to blame if the daemons do indeed penetrate the enterprise? Joining Joe’s closing keynote with be a highlight of the day.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Please find the program with more details (and a few empty slots we are currently filling) &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/schedule/">here&lt;/a>.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Tickets for the conference can be purchased here:
&lt;div class="flex justify-center m-8 mb-12">
&lt;a target="_blank" class="btn btn-lg btn-neutral !text-neutral-content no-underline"
href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=www.swisscyberstorm.com&amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;mtm_medium=website&amp;&amp;mtm_keyword=pretix-redirect">
Tickets conference 2023
&lt;/a>
&lt;/div>
&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;em>P.S. We previously announced a talk by Myriam Dunn-Cavelty.
Unfortunately, she had to cancel her participation because of an official engagement.&lt;/em>&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>The schedule for Swiss Cyber Storm 2023 is online</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/08/30/the-schedule-for-swiss-cyber-storm-2023-is-online/</link><pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2023 00:00:00 +3000</pubDate><dc:creator>Alessandro Monachesi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/08/30/the-schedule-for-swiss-cyber-storm-2023-is-online/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>The schedule for Swiss Cyber Storm 2023 is online&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/alessandro-monachesi/avatar_hu_7b2b98baf937a64b.webp" alt="Alessandro Monachesi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Alessandro Monachesi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>The conference program for Swiss Cyber Storm 2023 &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/schedule/">is now online&lt;/a> – albeit with some spaces to fill in.
The schedule will be completed in the next few weeks.
Stay tuned for the announcement of more amazing talks on hot cybersecurity topics by selected international experts.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Swiss Cyber Storm celebrates its tenth edition in 2023 with the conference theme “The Human Factor”</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/05/26/swiss-cyber-storm-celebrates-its-tenth-edition-in-2023-with-the-conference-theme-the-human-factor/</link><pubDate>Fri, 26 May 2023 00:00:00 +2600</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/main_track_intro_hu_9499345b4882d1da.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Alessandro Monachesi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/05/26/swiss-cyber-storm-celebrates-its-tenth-edition-in-2023-with-the-conference-theme-the-human-factor/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Swiss Cyber Storm celebrates its tenth edition in 2023 with the conference theme “The Human Factor”&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/alessandro-monachesi/avatar_hu_7b2b98baf937a64b.webp" alt="Alessandro Monachesi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Alessandro Monachesi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/main_track_intro_hu_9499345b4882d1da.webp"
alt="View of the main stage of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference"
>&lt;p>This year, Swiss Cyber Storm celebrate its anniversary: On October 24 in the Kursaal Bern, the tenth edition of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference will take place since the founding of the independent supporting association.
The first conference of this name was held in Rapperswil back in 2010, but at that time still under the umbrella of Compass Security.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The first independent Swiss Cyber Storm took place on June 13, 2013, at the KKL in Lucerne.
As no conference was possible in the pandemic year 2020, the Swiss Cyber Storm association is now celebrating the jubilee year in its eleventh year of existence.
To mark the anniversary and as a thank you for the loyalty of visitors, we have come up with a number of activities to benefit the community.
We will announce more details in the months and weeks leading up to the conference.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>With “The Human Factor”, a motto has been chosen for this year that underlines the central role of people in the fabric of IT security.
But are people really the weakest link in the security chain, as is often claimed? Can user training really improve security in companies? How can organizations create awareness of threats without everything coming to a standstill afterwards? Is increased security awareness desirable at all, or rather sand in the gears? What would IT systems have to look like to be “secure by default”? At this year’s Swiss Cyber Storm, these and other IT security topics will be presented and discussed.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#learning-from-the-specialists" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="learning-from-the-specialists" class="">
Learning from the specialists
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Once again, this year, visitors can expect to meet a large number of national and international security specialists:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Joseph Da Silva explores the role and identity of security officers in large organizations.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>In an original approach, he describes CISOs as possessing a mystical knowledge that enables them to deal with obscure threats that members of senior management do not understand.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>A very refreshing keynote that offers some explanations of corporate policy.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Joe Slowik is an expert in threat analysis and detection.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>He will talk about the convergence of tools and methods used by cybercriminals and state-sponsored actors, and how this complicates incident response and perpetrator attribution.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Cristina Lekati uses her background in psychology to talk about spear phishing attacks on high-level stakeholders and how strict rules alone do not provide effective protection.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Myriam Dunn Cavelty will speak about her core expertise: Cyber policy and Switzerland’s position in the international context.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>One topic is possibly the new Swiss Cyber Command.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Edzo Botjes uses Nassim Taleb’s concept of antifragility in the context of organizational design and how it might be applied in cloud architecture.&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>Additional speakers and the full conference program will be announced at a later date.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>For Tickets to Swiss Cyber Storm Conference 2023 go to &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/">Tickets&lt;/a>.
Early Bird tickets are still available at a reduced price until May 31, 2023.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>How to Set Up a Great Conference</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/03/20/how-to-set-up-a-great-conference/</link><pubDate>Mon, 20 Mar 2023 00:00:00 +2000</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/311_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_7e4c61b084465a31.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/03/20/how-to-set-up-a-great-conference/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>How to Set Up a Great Conference&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/311_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_7e4c61b084465a31.webp"
alt="A group photo of the Swiss Cyber Storm organizers"
>&lt;p>Swiss Cyber Storm has been around for more than a decade.
And if we look at the &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/01/26/time-for-the-swiss-cyber-storm-2022-feedback-report/">positive feedback&lt;/a> we are getting from our audience and from our sponsors, we are doing something right.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We see a lot of conferences struggle after the pandemic, so maybe it’s worthwhile to share a few insights into what makes an IT security conference great.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Since I’ve been leading the Swiss Cyber Storm program committee for a couple of years, this comes with a strong program perspective.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rule-1-know-who-you-are-and-what-you-want" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="rule-1-know-who-you-are-and-what-you-want" class="">
Rule #1: Know who you are and what you want
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>You need to have a vision – or at least a simple catch phrase – for your conference.
For Swiss Cyber Storm this is &lt;em>“The Prime IT Security Conference in Switzerland Setting the Swiss Infosec Agenda”&lt;/em>.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>At first sight this may just sound like marketing blah blah.
Yet it really defines the format for our conference.
For us, it defines the need to bring together techies and security officers, blue team as well as red team players.
The event needs to be attractive to all of them, including the venue, catering etc.
Unfortunately, this also means it’s going to be on the expensive side.
And in order to gather all people at the same location on the same date it pretty much has to be a one-day conference – which supposes a national focus, because people usually don’t travel internationally to attend one-day conferences.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>There is much more in a good claim than meets the eye at first glance.
A lot of thinking went into ours and it influences everything down to the smallest detail.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rule-2-a-great-program-is-essential" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="rule-2-a-great-program-is-essential" class="">
Rule #2: A great program is essential
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Honestly, I doubt most of our audience attends the conference because of the program.
They come because it’s fun, because their friends are going, they get to meet colleagues, the food is great, drinks are free, and it allows them to get away from the desk for a day, etc.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>However, this is not how they justify their attendance to their bosses (or themselves for that matter): The most important justification for a day of absence in the company is the program.
That’s why you always have to present it as a top-notch selection of exclusive talks.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So, treat the program like the most important part of the conference even if that’s probably an illusion.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rule-3-creating-a-great-program-based-on-a-call-for-papers-often-fails" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="rule-3-creating-a-great-program-based-on-a-call-for-papers-often-fails" class="">
Rule #3: Creating a great program based on a call for papers often fails
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>When launching a call for papers, you are asking for great applications based on great research.
But what you are actually looking for are great presentations.
Those are three wildly different things.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I’m sure you agree that the best researchers are not necessarily the best presenters.
And while there is a certain capacity to follow a poor presentation, it’s tedious and the tolerance of the listeners is limited.
One may get away with one or two poor presentations at a conference, but I would not really want to test the resilience of our audience in this regard.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>People invest a lot of time in their applications, and they deserve a thorough review and honest feedback.
But the person responsible for the conference program probably does not have the time for this for every application.
And what do you do when the best applications for your CfP all deal with the same hyped topic, but you would like to have a balanced program?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The result is often a wild selection of talks that don’t fit together and many presentations that looked a lot better on paper.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rule-4-creating-a-curated-program-is-much-easier" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="rule-4-creating-a-curated-program-is-much-easier" class="">
Rule #4: Creating a curated program is much easier
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>A curated program is a program where you select speakers to invite them to your conference.
This forces you to attend other conferences and scout for suitable candidates.
To do this you have to read a lot, to talk to many people and generally to stay on top of the IT security conversation and the hype cycle.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>It’s a lot of research and a lot of work.
But you will get exactly the program you want with good speakers who know how to present their topics.
Obviously, there will be speakers who turn down your invitation.
But that number can be kept low if done right.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rule-5-create-a-speaker-flyer" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="rule-5-create-a-speaker-flyer" class="">
Rule #5: Create a speaker flyer
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Think of this as a sales prospect that you hand out to potential speakers.
The speaker flyer should address all the pressing questions of the candidates.
It should show photos of previous famous speakers along with fabulous quotes about the experience of speaking at your conference.
Keywords like “UNESCO World Heritage site”, “hotel room with a view on the Alps” etc.
will certainly help as well.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>In short: The flyer should present your conference to the potential speakers as an opportunity they wouldn’t want to miss.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rule-6-pay-your-speakers-at-least-all-their-expenses" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="rule-6-pay-your-speakers-at-least-all-their-expenses" class="">
Rule #6: Pay your speakers (at least all their expenses)
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Speaking at conferences is a lot of fun but travelling costs a lot of time and money.
The least you can do is to cover the expenses for the journey and the accommodation.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Occasionally, we pay our keynote speakers, but most of our speakers follow our invitation and all they get is a plane ticket, a train ride, two nights in the hotel, and that’s it.
(Did I mention the view on the Alps?)&lt;/p>
&lt;p>This doesn’t sound like much compared to the time an international speaker invests to attend your conference.
But truth be told, most IT security conferences don’t even cover the full expenses of the speakers.
I find that very impolite.
Please pay your speakers!&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rule-7-keep-the-sponsors-away-from-the-main-track" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="rule-7-keep-the-sponsors-away-from-the-main-track" class="">
Rule #7: Keep the sponsors away from the main track
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I don’t know why, but many sponsors tend to deliver talks that do not resonate with the audience, especially when on the main stage.
Some feel overwhelmed by the occasion or the size of the stage, others feel entitled to ignore advice (maybe because they pay money to speak).
On top, the audience is expecting a poor sales talk, so this all comes together in very poor feedback for sponsor talks on the main stage.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The solution we have found is a separate sponsoring track.
Ever since we started that, the quality of the sponsors’ talks improved greatly.
And because the separate track allows more sponsors to present (offering more slots for talks), they have a greater incentive to bring their customers to our conference.
And on top, nobody is forced to watch the presentations since we have multiple talks.
It’s a win-win situation.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rule-8-treat-your-speakers-like-stars" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="rule-8-treat-your-speakers-like-stars" class="">
Rule #8: Treat your speakers like stars
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Having the stars of the IT security community speaking at your conference is awesome.
But at Swiss Cyber Storm, we try to also give lesser-known speakers an audience: People who have not spoken in Switzerland before or people who we feel deserve a bigger audience.
These people are not used to get the rock star treatment.
But we’ll make every effort possible to let them have a great time: addressing special food needs, bringing the family along, organizing a guided tour of the city, etc.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The night before the conference we run an exclusive speaker dinner.
Most of the speakers meet for the first time, and our set-up leaves a lot of room to mingle and talk.
Many friendships are born there.
But the most important part of the dinner, I think, is my introduction of everybody around the table.
For every speaker I explain how we met, what about them impresses me the most, and why I invited them to present to our audience.
Many a speaker told me they were never introduced in such a nice way.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But it’s not just flattery, I really do think they’re great people, and I know exactly why I want them in our program.
All I do is sharing positive vibes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rule-9-coach-your-speakers" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="rule-9-coach-your-speakers" class="">
Rule #9: Coach your speakers
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This harks back to rule #4.
With most conferences, the communication stops after the confirmation of a speaker.
With Swiss Cyber Storm, this is when the communication really starts.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The speakers obviously know their topics by heart.
But we know our audience, and we know the other presentations.
Working together, we can polish a presentation to perfection and deliver a talk that fits into the program and into the conversation we want to have with the audience.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Very few speakers have received this amount of feedback before from the organizers of a conference.
Some are not interested, while others have an open ear.
With them we continue the conversation until we think the presentation is perfect.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Btw, coaching a speaker does not mean you have to be petty.
Don’t pester them into using your official conference slides template for example.
This is about the speaker and their presentation and not about your corporate identity.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I think the coaching combined with the speaker selection is the key practice that makes the difference to other conferences.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rule-10-dont-underestimate-the-catering" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="rule-10-dont-underestimate-the-catering" class="">
Rule #10: Don’t underestimate the catering
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We have been struggling with the catering far too many times.
Lack of food, wrong food, cold food, bad food – we’ve seen it all.
We have always given this topic all the attention it deserved, but it just did not work out.
Bad luck perhaps.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So, whatever you do, treat the catering as super important.
Make sure you know exactly the menu, the timing, the amount, the location, etc.
And make sure the catering partner knows you are giving this your full attention and they won’t get away with a poor delivery.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>And lo’ and behold: This really worked for Swiss Cyber Storm 2022.
It was the first edition where we were completely happy with the catering.
What a step forward!&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Summing things up
When you target the right audience, when you have a great venue, catering works smoothly, your speakers feel completely at ease, then it suddenly all comes together and every talk will feel like a revelation to the audience.
This is when it really pays off to be a conference organizer.
I crave for these moments.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Now I am not claiming the rules above to be the only way to set up a great conference.
But if you follow my advice, I am confident you will be more than pleased with the results.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Time for the Swiss Cyber Storm 2022 feedback report</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/01/26/time-for-the-swiss-cyber-storm-2022-feedback-report/</link><pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2023 00:00:00 +2600</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2022/299_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_85d18ad6e9becad.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2023/01/26/time-for-the-swiss-cyber-storm-2022-feedback-report/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Time for the Swiss Cyber Storm 2022 feedback report&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2022/299_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_85d18ad6e9becad.webp"
alt="Christian Folini opening the 10th edition of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference"
>&lt;p>We have been sending out the same feedback survey for several years now.
This allows to get some consistency in reporting and allows for an internal discussion on a sound base.
This is vital, since people tend to tell us they loved the conference, but then they vote with their feet and we do not see them at future editions anymore.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The other key to decent feedback is to send out the survey immediately after the conference.
We’ve managed to do so again and landed 40 responses which is a sample size of more than 10% of the audience.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#overall-impression-of-the-swiss-cyber-storm-conference" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="overall-impression-of-the-swiss-cyber-storm-conference" class="">
Overall impression of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This is the first question, also meant to break the ice.
It’s a multiple-choice question and we stick to the same wording every year.
This gives us some baseline of the quality of the event:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>59 % (2021: 64 %): It was a very interesting and cool event, keep it up and I’ll be there next year&lt;/li>
&lt;li>36 % (32 %): It was quite good – I consider attending next year&lt;/li>
&lt;li>5 % (4 %): It was ok, but I probably won’t be there again&lt;/li>
&lt;li>0 % (0 %): Bad, I won’t be there again&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>We are seeing a slight reduction on the top level, but that’s of little significance, namely because the 2021 edition was quite clearly a fan audience.
The 2022 audience was bigger, and the numbers are more realistic.
What we usually do is grouping the answers and looking at them through the years.
This is what we are getting:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>2022: 95 % positive / 5 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2021: 96 % positive / 4 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2020: no conference&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2019: 91 % positive / 9 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2018: 91 % positive / 9 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2017: 89 % positive / 11 % negative&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>There is clearly an uptrend and I doubt we can get any higher: We have found a winning setup.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Contributing to the winning setup was also the food or more generally the catering.
Getting the food right is surprisingly difficult, but after years of troubles, there’s no big problems in this area anymore.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#average-speaker-rating" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="average-speaker-rating" class="">
Average speaker rating
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We are asking our audience to rate all the speakers individually.
We are not sharing that information in public for obvious reasons but we’re open to recommend speakers to other conferences (just get in touch with us).
What we also do, though, is to calculate the average or mean speaker rating which gives us a pretty good idea of the quality of the work of the program committee.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The rating goes from &lt;em>1 – bad&lt;/em> to &lt;em>2 – average&lt;/em> and &lt;em>3 – good&lt;/em> to &lt;em>4 – very&lt;/em> good.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Our speakers did good again coming in at 3.19 without the sponsor talks.
We see an upward trend here as well:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>2022: 3.19&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2021: 3.34 (again, quite obviously a fanboy audience)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2020: no conference&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2019: 3.04&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2018: 3.04&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2017: 2.96&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>An interesting observation is that the 2017 speakers felt like a smashing success.
But we have raised the average rating from the audience quite a bit during the years and while I think we had great speakers across the board in 2022, I do not think that the 2017 speakers have been worse in retrospect.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>One possible interpretation is that the audience has changed slightly and slowly caught up with the shifted character of the conference.
Swiss Cyber Storm used to have more technical talks and replaced some of them with presentations with a more holistic approach.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I do not want to dive into the “why” here but we can use this as an explanation why the 2017 audience rated the speakers lower than this year: The audience back then was expecting a bit more tech talks.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>All these shifts are apparently slight, but I think they show in the average numbers.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#the-focus-theme-digital-identities-and-how-to-secure-them" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="the-focus-theme-digital-identities-and-how-to-secure-them" class="">
The focus theme “Digital Identities and How to Secure Them”
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>92 % of the audience welcomed our focus theme (“Good choice”), 5 % was not very thrilled with the choice (with 3 % ignoring the theme).&lt;/p>
&lt;p>How did we perform in the “good choice” category throughout the years?&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>2022: 92 % (“Digital Identities and How to Secure Them”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2021: 88 % (“Securing the Supply Chain”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2020: no conference (but it would have been “E-Health”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2019: 83 % (“Embracing the Hackers”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2018: 78 % (“Trust”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>2017: 67 % (“E-Voting”, but not very prominent)&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>Again, a clear upward trend, now reaching a height that is hard to interpret outside the idea about the shift in the audience.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#where-did-you-hear-about-swiss-cyber-storm" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="where-did-you-hear-about-swiss-cyber-storm" class="">
Where did you hear about Swiss Cyber Storm?
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This is a question that tells us about our marketing.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>58 % (2021: 64 %) I’ve attended before&lt;/li>
&lt;li>16 % (24 %): colleagues&lt;/li>
&lt;li>15 % (0 %): via communication by a sponsor&lt;/li>
&lt;li>8 % (0 %): online articles in the media or blogs&lt;/li>
&lt;li>3 % (4 %): via a partner organization (InsomniHack, SATW, Area41, etc.)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>0 % (8%): social media&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>These numbers vary quite wildly from year to year, but it’s pretty clear that we have a returning audience.
Furthermore, our leverage to get more people to the conference is via sponsors and colleagues of people who have attended before.
We’ve never been very good with social media and partner organizations and online articles did not contribute much most of the years.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#did-you-like-the-raffle" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="did-you-like-the-raffle" class="">
Did you like the Raffle?
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The raffle is a way to get the audience to engage with the sponsors.
You’ll find a detailed explanation &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/11/04/scs-2021-feedback-from-the-audience/">here&lt;/a>.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>33 %: Yes, that was fun&lt;/li>
&lt;li>43 %: neutral&lt;/li>
&lt;li>13 %: What raffle?&lt;/li>
&lt;li>11 %: other, mostly negative&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>The share of people who enjoy the raffle is coming down vs those who ignore it or do not want to be bothered.
It has been coming down a few years now despite the great prizes.
Given we used to advertise the raffle more on stage, I double down on the paradoxical interpretation of last year: The less we talk about the raffle, the more people are annoyed with it.
The not so obvious reaction would be to either find something new, or to give the raffle a more prominent position in the program.
We’ll see.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#freeform-feedback" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="freeform-feedback" class="">
Freeform Feedback
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We fumbled the survey for this question unfortunately.
It was simply missing.
This is a pity since we always get some very uplifting feedback in this free text part of the survey.
And it allows our audience to point the finger at mishaps that we might have overlooked ourselves.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#summary" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="summary" class="">
Summary
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>All in all, we are happy with the positive rating from our audience.
It’s now so high, that it’s very hard to optimize even further, and we have to make sure we are not getting complacent.
Keeping up the quality is hard.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Looking forward to see you all at Swiss Cyber Storm 2023, the prime national conference that sets the Swiss infosec agenda.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Let’s talk: Next season of SCS in a Nutshell</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/11/25/lets-talk-next-season-of-scs-in-a-nutshell/</link><pubDate>Thu, 25 Nov 2021 00:00:00 +2500</pubDate><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/11/25/lets-talk-next-season-of-scs-in-a-nutshell/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Let’s talk: Next season of SCS in a Nutshell&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>The numbers of viewers on our nutshell format continue to amaze us.
When we did our first Swiss Cyber Storm in a Nutshell double-interview in October 2020, the success was immediately visible.
It felt like we had hit a niche here and the extended interviews on cyber security topics with a decidedly Swiss perspective addressed an obvious interest.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Meanwhile we have done four editions:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>SCS in a Nutshell 1: &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujf51rOGMe0">With Florian Schütz and Edouard Bugnon&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>SCS in a Nutshell 2: &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTCljaQVlTU">Raphael Arrouas and Tobias Ospelt&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>SCS in a Nutshell 3: &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK3sxH4ldNU">Thomas Süssli and Myriam Dunn Cavelty&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>SCS in a Nutshell 4: &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJDZJ5uCcJg">Jean-Philippe Aumasson and Jonas Wagner&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>The interviews are also available as podcast:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/swiss-cyber-storm-in-a-nutshell/id1555258818">Apple Podcasts&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/1XMsJ7NbwDFJrqEFTH088j">Spotify&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>&lt;a href="https://anchor.fm/swiss-cyber-storm">Anchor&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>We want to continue this successful series and it’s time to look into the next season.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>And we’d like to discuss this with you, the SCS audience: What are the relevant topics for you? Who should we invite? How many editions would you listen to? Is this still the right format?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>This is going to happen on Zoom Nov 30, 21:00.
Please get in touch &lt;a href="mailto:christian.folini@swisscyberstorm.com">via mail&lt;/a> if you want to join and I’ll send you the link.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>SCS2021 – Talks online</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/11/10/scs2021-talks-online/</link><pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:00:00 +1000</pubDate><dc:creator>Luke Flückiger</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/11/10/scs2021-talks-online/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>SCS2021 – Talks online&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/lukas-flueckiger/avatar_hu_410374ea20757f04.webp" alt="Luke Flückiger" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Luke Flückiger
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>We’re happy to announce, that all of our SwissCyberStorm 2021 talks are now online on our &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY-Wb3JuBv_xpa8s6ZrpUxg">YouTube channel&lt;/a>.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Some Highlights:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Keynote: Wendy Nather on &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqJIv4f4ztg">Supply Chain Security&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Tech-Talk: Mario Heiderich on &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXEowmgwiSg">mXSS&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Swiss National Team for the European Cyber Security Challenge: &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNRhSsbjhy4&amp;amp;ab_channel=SwissCyberStorm">Climbing the Hacking /mnt/ain&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>Have fun watching the videos.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>SCS 2021: Feedback from the Audience</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/11/04/scs-2021-feedback-from-the-audience/</link><pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2021 00:00:00 +0400</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/041_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_4e0a15c0ce82fe6b.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/11/04/scs-2021-feedback-from-the-audience/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>SCS 2021: Feedback from the Audience&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/041_Swiss_Cyber_Storm_hu_4e0a15c0ce82fe6b.webp"
alt="Christian Folini opening the 10th edition of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference"
>&lt;p>After every Swiss Cyber Storm, we are sending the exactly same feedback form to all our paying attendees.
We pay attention to send the same question, so we can compare the scores across different years.
In this blog post, we’re sharing the feedback for the first time with you.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We received feedback from 25 paying attendees.
That is less than the last time.
But we also had less people in the audience.
Unfortunately, people did not have the feedback form in their mail the next morning and that seems to be a decisive factor with regards to the return rate.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#overall-impression-of-the-swiss-cyber-storm-conference" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="overall-impression-of-the-swiss-cyber-storm-conference" class="">
Overall impression of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This is the opening question.
It’s a warmup question, but it’s also a first general impression.
We focus on the rate of people who plan to come back the next year.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>64% (2019: 48.1%) It was a very interesting and cool event, keep it up and I’ll be there next year
32% (44.2%) It was quite good – I consider attending next year
4% (7.7%) It was ok but I probably won’t be there again
-% (1.3%) Bad, I won’t be there again&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We see a significant jump in the positive feedback.
It’s a first sign this was a good conference, but let’s not get carried away and look at the rest of the feedback form.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#the-speakers" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="the-speakers" class="">
The Speakers
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Next, it’s the speakers.
We are using a scale from 1 (bad) to 4 (very good) and ask about a score for every speaker.
We are not publishing the individual stats for the speakers, but the mean value is a 3.34 (up from 3.04 in 2019), which is a wild jump since it took three SCS editions to get from 2.89 to 3.04.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>And yes, let’s share one individual stat: Mario Heiderich’s mXSS presentation scored a perfect “4 – very good”.
That’s a remarkable premiere at Swiss Cyber Storm, we never had a 4.0 before.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#what-do-you-think-of-securing-the-supply-chain-as-our-focus-theme" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="what-do-you-think-of-securing-the-supply-chain-as-our-focus-theme" class="">
What do you think of “Securing the Supply Chain” as our focus theme?
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>A few years ago we started to give the conference a focus theme.
It looks like a detail for the conference, yet it forces us to think hard.
Think really hard about stuff that matters to the industry, namely in Switzerland.
And this thinking has to happen really, since it’s fundamental when we start to curate the program and approach potential speakers.
We typically pick the focus theme around 9 months ahead of the conference.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>And because picking the focus theme is so hard, the answers for this question really matter:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>88% (2019: 82.7%) Good choice&lt;/li>
&lt;li>4% (3.8%) No, I did not like this&lt;/li>
&lt;li>8% (13.5%) I was not aware you had a focus theme&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>That numbers are higher than the 82.7% that “Embracing the hackers” got in 2019, so it’s a pleasing result again.
I just wonder how much the planned focus theme “E-Health” would have scored if there was an SCS in 2020.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#where-did-you-hear-about-swiss-cyber-storm-optional" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="where-did-you-hear-about-swiss-cyber-storm-optional" class="">
Where did you hear about Swiss Cyber Storm (optional)
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>64% (2019: 48.1%) I’ve attended before&lt;/li>
&lt;li>0% (3.8%) Via communication by a sponsor&lt;/li>
&lt;li>4% (1.9%) Via a partner organisation (ISSS, OWASP, InsomniHack, Black Alps, etc.)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>0% (1.9%) Online articles in the media or blogs&lt;/li>
&lt;li>24% (40.4%) Colleagues&lt;/li>
&lt;li>8% (0%) Social Media&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>Here we see a shift from “colleagues” towards “I’ve attended before”.
If this felt like an SCS edition for fans, we can understand why now.
It’s like the hard core of our audience came and the potential new attendees are waiting until Covid-19 is really over.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I think the small rise of social media is also remarkable.
This may look like it was by accident, but I do not think so, since we had a stronger social media presence this time, namely on LinkedIn where we were absent before.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#did-you-like-our-raffle" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="did-you-like-our-raffle" class="">
Did you like our Raffle?
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Let’s turn to the raffle, a polarizing topic for the audience.
With the raffle we send the audience to get a stamp at every sponsor booth and if you complete your set, you are admitted to the final draw by lot and if you are picked, you get to pick one of our prizes.
Among them a large scale Lego Excavator or a very hot drone that an unnamed CISO from the Geneva region selected.
But given it’s such a polarizing element of our conference, the question is about feeling the pulse of how many people love it, and how many people hate the raffle.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The happy winner of our raffle pocketing his pick: a top notch drone (Photo: Matthias Käser)
In 2019, we advertized the raffle heavily between the talks.
We did not repeat that this time and I kind of expected less people annoyed with the raffle.
However, the opposite was the case:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>44% (2019: 53%) Yes, that was fun and got me in touch with Companies I did not know&lt;/li>
&lt;li>24% (19.1%) Feels like a rat race, please stop it&lt;/li>
&lt;li>12% (14.9%) What raffle?&lt;/li>
&lt;li>20% (12.1%) Other&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>We are seeing more people being fed up with the raffle despite it being less prominent and less advertized on stage.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I’m reading the stats from the perspective of a fan conference again: People knew the sponsors already (most sponsors are long standing partners) and walking up to their booths again was probably not overly interesting for some 24% of the audience.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But let’s be very clear here: The sponsors are super-important for our conference.
Without sponsors, we would not be able to pay all our speakers the full trip and two hotel nights.
And one thing that a sponsor wants from us is a certain guarantee that people will come and visit their booth.
As long as we send around 100 people at every booth, the money is well invested for our sponsors and the conference is sustainable.
And look at the photo again: Is not this smile totally worth it?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#freeform-feedback" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="freeform-feedback" class="">
Freeform Feedback
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Let’s turn to the individual feedback now.
I’m not going to comment on this, but it is a topic for the debriefing meeting of the committee.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Great location, great infrastructure, good to reach, good organization, well done!&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Freue mich aufs nächste Jahr 😀&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Overall it is a nice and well organized event but I would have liked more technical talks and had the Illusion to get in touch with other technicans and geeks (the security community not “just” the management and business edge of the swiss security companies.
But overall I liked the event and it was a really nice experience&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Werde die verschiedenen Präsentationen zur Verfügung gestellt?&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Please have more technical talks like Marios mXSS talk&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Great Job, great location, great speaker.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Thanks for organizing such an event during these hard times, with many unknowns.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Dinner buffet was out of order really quickly.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Gold Talk was a bit short on actual content.
Or just teasing and interesting subject (bug bounty vs. pentest engagement).
And then having proton “no logging, jk” mail on stage was a bit cringe if you’ve read the news.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>It’d be nice to have a “Call for Papers” for talks, all these “sponsored” talks are feeling like ads, it’s annoying and reduces the overall quality of the line-up IMO.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Also I disliked the fact there were so many “virtual” talks, especially since the video and audio quality was awful.
Please make sure both sides have a decent internet connection next time you do that.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>I am also not so sure you are properly targeting a given audience: some talks are for engineers, some talks are for CISO or “higher ups”, it feels like a mix and it was difficult to always find interest in one of the proposed talks.
Maybe have proper “technical track” and “management track” instead of mixing both types in all tracks?&lt;/li>
&lt;li>The SCS was very well organized and as a participant you felt safe (concerning corona)&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>As stated above, I won’t go into any responses here.
But we might do a blog post later in order to explain the concept of the conference and why there is such a mix of talks.
And about the slides: They have been linked on the website in the meantime.
Videos are hitting Youtube next week or so.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#speakers-that-should-be-part-of-swiss-cyber-storm-2022-optional" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="speakers-that-should-be-part-of-swiss-cyber-storm-2022-optional" class="">
Speakers that should be part of Swiss Cyber Storm 2022 (optional)
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Finally the question about the speaker wishlist.
The requests are always inspiring and even if most of them won’t end up on our stage, some will, so these requests are really important for us.&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Bruce Schneider&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Fefe&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Nicolas Ruff (“cybersecurity was a mistake”); Pascal Junod (“On the asymmetry of cybersecurity: watching the hacker hacking your crypto, rolling the new version once they finally got it”); Frederic Jacobs (“How (Apple) engineers are actually trying to do good and rolling proper crypto”)&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Eduard Snowden&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Jann Horn&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;a href="#lets-wrap-this-up" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="lets-wrap-this-up" class="">
Let’s Wrap This Up
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Looking at the reduced number of participants and the jump in positive feedback, I am concluding this was a fans conference.
We welcomed those who really love the conference and they tend to give us better grades then a more general audience.
So I think the feedback has a very positive bias, I would say.
We’ll know for sure when we have the numbers for 2022.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Speaking of Swiss Cyber Storm 2022: The conference will happen on October 25, 2022.
We’re running a &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/?mtm_campaign=www.swisscyberstorm.com&amp;amp;mtm_source=blog&amp;amp;mtm_medium=website">super early bird ticket sale&lt;/a> up to the end of the year.
If you want to get the cheapest tickets for the conference, then you better grab one now.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>SCS in a nutshell with Jean-Philippe Aumasson and Jonas Wagner</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/08/25/scs-in-a-nutshell-with-jean-philippe-aumasson-and-jonas-wagner/</link><pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2021 00:00:00 +2500</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/scs-in-a-nutshell-episode-4-1_hu_3578de9fdc2a8d4e.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/08/25/scs-in-a-nutshell-with-jean-philippe-aumasson-and-jonas-wagner/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>SCS in a nutshell with Jean-Philippe Aumasson and Jonas Wagner&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/scs-in-a-nutshell-episode-4-1_hu_3578de9fdc2a8d4e.webp"
alt="&lt;no value>"
>&lt;p>Switzerland has become a hotspot for security startups.
Our program chair Christian Folini discusses this with his guests cryptographer Jean-Philippe Aumasson (&lt;a href="https://twitter.com/veorq">@veorq&lt;/a>), co-founder and Chief Security Officer of &lt;a href="https://www.taurushq.com">Taurus&lt;/a>, and Jonas Wagner (&lt;a href="https://twitter.com/_jwagner">@_jwagner&lt;/a>), co-founder and Chief Technical Officer of &lt;a href="https://threatray.com">Threatray&lt;/a>.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Both startups started in 2018 and both closed successful financing rounds.
Yet this is about where the parallels end: Taurus has positioned itself as a go-to shop for anything around the management of crypto assets / digital ledgers (we’re trying to the obvious term here).
Taurus is therefore using its FINMA licence to address banks and investors.
Threatray in contrast is a deep tech startup that supports malware analysis with machine learning and strong indexing.
Obviously Threatray’s market are security researchers and their labs.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>This 4th episode of SCS in a nutshell discusses the plan behind the two startups, the technology, financing, growth, hitting your market, recruiting and much more.&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="aspect-w-16 aspect-h-9 mt-6 mb-8">
&lt;iframe src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/lJDZJ5uCcJg"
title="SCS in a nutshell with start-up founders Jean-Philippe Aumasson and Jonas Wagner"
frameborder="0"
allowfullscreen
>
&lt;/iframe>
&lt;/div>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>Video of episode on YouTube: &lt;a href="https://youtu.be/lJDZJ5uCcJg">https://youtu.be/lJDZJ5uCcJg&lt;/a>&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>Pure audio podcast edition: &lt;a href="https://anchor.fm/swiss-cyber-storm/episodes/SCS-in-a-nutshell-with-Jean-Philippe-Aumasson-and-Jonas-Wagner-e16e84p">anchor.fm MP3&lt;/a>&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>SCS YouTube channel: &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY-Wb3JuBv_xpa8s6ZrpUxg">https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY-Wb3JuBv_xpa8s6ZrpUxg&lt;/a>&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>SCS in a nutshell podcast:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Web: &lt;a href="https://anchor.fm/swiss-cyber-storm">https://anchor.fm/swiss-cyber-storm&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>RSS: &lt;a href="https://anchor.fm/s/4e5c0668/podcast/rss">https://anchor.fm/s/4e5c0668/podcast/rss&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>Swiss Security Startup Map: &lt;a href="https://cysecmap.swiss/">https://cysecmap.swiss/&lt;/a>&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;a href="#transcript" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="transcript" class="">
Transcript
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Welcome to Cyber Storm in a nutshell.
Today, we’re talking about start-ups.
With me are Jonas Wagner from Theatray and Jean-Phillippe Aumasson from Taurus.
Thank you, guys, for coming.&lt;/p>
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Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>Thank you.&lt;/p>
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Jonas Wagner:
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&lt;p>Thank you for having us.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Jean-Phillippe, you are a scientist and cryptographer, you’ve worked for Kudelsky many years, you had one of these rare scientific positions in the industry, I presume a certain salary and you gave this up to work in a start-up, to fund a start-up.
And on top, you continued to publish books and you’re also a family.
The latest book you published was with your daughter, you look very healthy, you’re back from holidays – you still have holidays.
How do you do this? What is your secret to this life?&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-1" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>Well, thank you Christian for this introduction.
I don’t know if I deserve so many good words, but regarding the first point you mentioned, I’ve been working almost 10 years for the Kudelsky group.
I’ve been lucky to work in different roles doing very technical stuff, learning a lot, doing consulting, working with software and hardware and at some point like many people you feel like, okay, I’ve worked in a big company maybe it’s time, at this stage in my career, when is the best time if I want to do my own projects, my own start-up.
So that’s what I decided.
So, I left Kudelsky on very good terms, it’s a very good company and I started these new adventures.
But the time management, as many start-up founders know, it tends to be the most challenging part of it.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay.
And you started in 2018, I think, and Threatray also started in 2018.
You have a bit of a different background, Jonas.
You did your studies and out of your studies, you started Threatray.&lt;/p>
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Jonas Wagner:
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&lt;p>Exactly.
So let’s say the core part of what we do was actually part of my master’s thesis.
So, we had this university lab at the University of Applied Sciences in Bern, and we developed algorithms around analyzing malware threats and out of that came basically the fundamental algorithms that we now transformed into the product at Threatray.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay.
So this is what you’re doing, you researched something, which you thought is interesting, it kind of worked and then you guys decided, hey, let’s build a company around this idea, because apparently there is something to this.&lt;/p>
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Jonas Wagner:
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&lt;p>Exactly.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So, you mentioned malware analysis.
What is it that you do?&lt;/p>
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Jonas Wagner:
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&lt;p>So, from a technical background what we try to do initially is to have a new way of identifying malware threats.
So, instead of looking at high-level patterns, as it often is done, we try to go deeper and try to identify code fragments of malware, because malware is just like software, right?&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So, we’re looking at code, threats are already code in software.&lt;/p>
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Jonas Wagner:
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&lt;p>Exactly.
So, we try to identify, to re-identify, similar types of threats, to connect them with each other, which then allows you to very accurately identify certain threats.
So not just say bad or good, but is it type A or type B or type C and then out of this idea basically came the product, because we’re very good at identifying that.
And that’s a use case everyone likes to have on one hand and on the other hand, we also make these threats searchable, just like a search engine.
So, you can go through millions of threats in seconds and say, well, have I seen this before? Have I been affected in the past by this? And out of that then basically came this product.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So, you’re getting like a lot of malware samples and then you try to group them with algorithms.
That sounds a lot like machine learning.&lt;/p>
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Jonas Wagner:
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&lt;p>Yes, we use some machine learning in between and we make it searchable and by making them searchable, we basically lift capabilities of identifying and correlating attacks to a new depth that is not easily doable or easily accessible for a lot of companies.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So that’s a new thing that you’re doing there.
Talking about new, you’re a blockchain start-up in the wider sense, Jean-Philippe.&lt;/p>
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Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>No Christian, we’re not a blockchain start-up.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>But you’re working in cryptographic assets?&lt;/p>
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Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>Yes.
It’s related to the blockchain space but you’re right, many people are confused when they go to our website are like, what do you do? So ultimately, we talk not truly of blockchain, but of digital assets, because today there’s a big evolution whereby not on individuals, but also institutions and financial actors and even financial regulators, like Finmain Switzerland are moving into this space.
So, what we do, we enable financial institutions, mainly banks, to work, to manage digital assets.
So, when we say digital assets, it can be cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin, Ethereumthe ones that everybody knows, but also digital currencies, such as DM, or if we have one, the digital Swiss Franc, and it’s also, that’s maybe what’s the newest: tokenized securities.
So financial instruments that live in the classical finance squad but that can be represented as digital tokens on a blockchain or marginally on a digital ledger.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So, if you read the new law that was passed a few months ago in the Swiss parliament, it allows in the context of the Swiss law to work with tokenized securities, but the word blockchain is not even mentioned, so they talk of “electronic ledger”.
So, going back to what we do, we are a FinTech, a financial technology company.
We’re a technological company and we do the technology that banks can integrate or work with in a SAS model to manage, to store safely their securities.
So storing is not like gold, the more you have the more stuff you need to put in a room, it is just digital.
So, it is just one cryptographic key or a few cryptographic keys that you have to protect and if these keys are stolen, then you lose the money.
So that’s the biggest challenge.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>That’s the biggest challenge, this is where you come in, because you bring that cryptographic knowledge to banks that don’t have it.&lt;/p>
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Jonas Wagner:
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&lt;p>Exactly.
So, it’s like a security person, it’s security engineering, but maybe the most challenging part, at least from my perspective, because my background is in security cryptography, I’ve been doing this for 10 years, I know this in and out, but what is often quite challenging is to integrate this technology in the bank’s ecosystem, in the banks IT and to connect all the pipes, to make sure that your product doesn’t jeopardize the security posture, the compliance posture of the bank, because Swiss banks are using very strict procedures, processes.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Oh, of course.
So, compliance is a big challenge for you as well and your customers risk a compliance problem, unless you do your job properly?&lt;/p>
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Jonas Wagner:
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&lt;p>Right and we’re very serious because are regulated ourselves.
We have a FINMA license, a security house license.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yes, that was the first time you really hit the news, when you obtained the license.&lt;/p>
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Jonas Wagner:
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&lt;p>Yes, so we’re in this funny situation where we are on the one hand a start-up, a bit young, a bit chaotic, but we cannot be so chaotic, because we are working with banks and we are also very strict in terms of procedures.
So as Chief Security Officer of this company I’m responsible of making sure that we follow all the processes in terms of, for example, vulnerability management, working with malware detection, for example, change management, incident response, we are audited regularly by top firms.
So we are very, very serious about it because we know that if we fail in terms of compliance, then it’s bad for us, it’s bad for the clients.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay.
I see that.
So that is very different outset for you Jonas because you have the freedom to develop something, and market a few labs while you guys need to talk to top management.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-4" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>Yes, it is maybe a different business model I think, from what I understand.
So what you guys are doing is, I don’t know if it can be called “deep tech” but you’re already innovating at the core of malware detection engine.
While our work also encompasses the architecture.&lt;/p>
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Jonas Wagner:
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&lt;p>And we have to integrate to a degree as well because in most teams you already have different tools.
You collect logs, you collect binaries, you collect all different kinds of things and all of those technologies try to talk to each other, ideally, and then there are some technologies in between that try to make talking much easier and now comes our new technology and you need to tell people, well, where does this fit? What does it connect to? What’s the input, what’s the output? Then we also have to gain that understanding of where do we fit in.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-5" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>How to integrate, how to connect to CMs and so on.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>But the problem you were addressing, how to integrate and fit together, I mean, that is a global market, a global community, and everybody uses the same tools I presume.
More or less.
While as you have now a Swiss license and I take it the regulation is different in every country.
So, if you have to be so close to the regulation, it’s challenging to go to a bigger market.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-6" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>So, on the one hand, so there’s the Swiss security license regarding the exchange that we are operating.
I did not mention it, but we run this TDX.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So, you’re a bit of a Jack of all trades when it comes to digital ledgers?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Jean-Phillippe Aumasson: Well, we try to, I don’t want to use the word holistic, but we try to provide all the necessary tools.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>The term holistic is used on the website, actually.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-7" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>Maybe it is, but as a client, as a bank, you don’t want to talk to 10 different parties with 10 different…&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-16" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yes, so you don’t bring anything “digital ledger” to a midsize bank who doesn’t have the know-how and doesn’t have the capacity.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-8" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>Right, so for example, very simply we have both the technology to store the assets also to integrate them in your core banking and also to issue your own token.
So, if you want to create a Swiss Cyber Storm coin tomorrow.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-17" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Oh yeah, let’s note it.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-9" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>And also security.
So it is an important aspect, software security.
We need to be able to demonstrate that our IT environment is safe, that we have logs of everything we do and that, for example, we’re immune to all sorts of malware.
So I’m very interested about what you’d say [Jonas].&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-18" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Cool.
But then you’re ultimately targeting a bigger market in Switzerland.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-10" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;p>I mean, we are global.
We have clients in Europe, we have clients in the US as well.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-19" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>And then with Swiss banking know-how you’re ready for the US market…?&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-11" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, we started locally because we are also the key to have in Switzerland a very mature ecosystem and financial actor that have been willing to approach this sort of digital assets and also a very pragmatic regulator, I think FINMA has been doing very good work in issuing new regulations.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-20" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-20" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
So yes, I mean, there is the point we could destroy this new market with bad regulation.
So it’s how open do you leave it, how much you do we regulate it and you think Switzerland is doing a good job there?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-12" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-12" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, I think because some people would ask you oh, do you believe in Bitcoin and blockchain.
The question is not your personal opinion regarding whether you think it will be good or not, whether it will stay.
We have to realize the reality is that it’s out there, there’s tons of money, billions and trillions of money invested, there are opportunities, so regardless of whether or not you like it, or believe in it from a business perspective…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-21" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-21" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>There is business to be made.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-13" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-13" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-22" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-22" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I think I got that, as much as that.
What would you say, Jonas, is you’re doing something new, so that looks like, I was surprised this is new by the way, but the way you explained it to us, this is new technology.
So you’re bringing something new to the market and I guess the competition is far different from what I understand is digital ledger start-ups.
That’s a shark tank.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-10" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-10" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Well, we do just B2B.
So I don’t know if you guys do B2B, B2C or cloud-based.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-14" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-14" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>B2Bs.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-23" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-23" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>But there are so many of these start-ups in this domain.
I mean, the competition is huge, while as your competition (Jonas) is probably tough or selling is always difficult, but it’s not like a hundred companies who try to do the same thing that you’re doing.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-15" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-15" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Well, I would say the opposite actually, because even this morning, I was looking at the situation where malware detection and port security for different platforms and there are tons of vendors and the old ones trying to catch up, they are the new entrants, but in our space, there are very few companies doing the kind of thing what we do.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-24" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-24" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Oh, really? So, for an outsider like me, it looks like it’s the same with that stuff…it’s not.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-16" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-16" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>There are companies doing blockchain things, but companies doing banking grade, digital asset management, issuance, and storage, using things that banks can accept, there are maybe two or three players in Switzerland, and very few in Europe.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-25" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-25" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, you would say between a bank and a blockchain start-up, there’s a huge gap and you’ll fit in there?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-17" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-17" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, because a bank that is regulated and that has constraints, for example, protection of client’s personal data, regarding lots of phones, it’s a completely different game than even small investment funds or individuals or small organizations that just want to make money quickly.
It’s a completely different thing.
And I think that sales cycles, I don’t know in your guys’ case, but if you work with a bank, you really have to get their trust because you will be in contact with, well, their founder directly, potentially with their client identifiers.
So, it can be very sensitive and therefore it can take a lot of time to go through all the due diligence and evaluation processes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-26" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-26" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Until you have a partnership established.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-18" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-18" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, it’s like, I guess if you run an antivirus, if you do malware detection, you might have to work with a kernel.
You might have to be very low in the system.
So I have a friend who is doing something a bit similar to what you’re doing and how to demonstrate that the economic model was not backdoored.
They had to do a number of security audits to demonstrate that it was safe.
So when you’re a new start-up, and also when you approach big companies, the big companies, they will tell you, okay, you’re a small start-up, you’re very friendly guy who does good tech, but do we know that in two years from now you will still be around, many of this has to be discussed at the beginning, you know?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-27" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-27" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, I see that.
You’re not brand-new start-ups, you started like three years ago both of you, you’re still doing fine, you get investments.
The way I looked at Theatray, this is a classic Swiss start-up story, guys.
It’s a spinoff from the University of Applied Sciences, your team with Endre Bangerter, your professor and you launched a start-up, you got some investments.
Would you say this is classical best practice or this is how it works in Switzerland?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-11" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-11" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That’s hard to say or generalize.
For us it worked well, we’ve heard of similar cases before of start-ups who basically got incepted out of research work and saw an opportunity, so it worked out well for us in this case so far.
Yes, so far that worked out well.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-28" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-28" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And you have a university background and then you kind of need the business know-how as well.
It’s this is, in your situation, where the investors come in, so they are not only giving you a big check, they’re also giving you knowledge, tips, so you don’t have to fall into the traps.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-12" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-12" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yeah.
So we’re both techies right.
We come from the techie world.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-29" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-29" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So you two guys run the company, basically?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-13" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-13" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, we run the company and the idea to get investors was not just money.
That’s important as well, but also experience from this entire start-up process.
So we have very little knowledge of business of how do we hire the right people, what are all the legal aspects that we need to consider, how to get from technology to a product, to the market.
A lot of those angel investors became part of our advisory board and we basically built that advisory board purely for the reason to support us and extend our knowledge of this entire process; the entire aspects of building a company from scratch basically, just the technology and that was tremendously helpful: to have a lot of insights and past learnings being transported to us.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-30" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-30" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay and for the investor it becomes interesting because they can like kind of control what is happening to the money, the closer they get to you…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-14" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-14" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, I also have the feeling they enjoy that.
They want to be part of the process.
They want to share the knowledge.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-31" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-31" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So that’s the said real investor who has fun working with start-ups.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-19" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-19" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, they’ve seen start-ups before and to say, well, here I can help, not just with money, but I’ve seen this situation, how about you do it like this because of my experience, I can tell you this works out best.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-32" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-32" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
So in your case, that is Ariel Lüdi from the Hammer Team, for example, Thomas Dübendorfer, well-known Swiss angel investors.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-15" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-15" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.
So, they have a lot of experience in supporting the build-up of start-ups, they also have their own start-ups.
So that’s extremely helpful too, to have these insights and these learning from people who have been in this industry for a long time, to basically profit from them and ultimately you need to learn so many things very quickly and that this tough, basic understanding of many different things besides technology and that really accelerates this kind of learning process.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-33" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-33" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, I get that.
So there was a professor and a student.
In your situation Jean-Philippe that was really different because you guys did not go to school together.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-20" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-20" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Not really, the names I hear from your board, I think you’re in good hands and one other person you mentioned, I had a discussion with him and I guess he will help you on this side is maybe a stereotype, but we as start-ups in Switzerland we tend to have very skilled, very good technology, very knowledgeable people, very smart people, very trustworthy people.
But unlike Americans, we have a different approach to setting, to approaching the market.
We’re not too much into the “fake it until you make it”, it’s like “make it and then try to…”&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-34" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-34" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>To find a market: “By the way we have a product.”&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-21" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-21" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, and I think as young founders and as people with technical background, like I have we may be a bit naive or inexperienced, but sometimes what I’ve learned from my a few years of start-up is that we should not hesitate into not exaggerating, but being proud of what we do and being bold and telling confidentially to clients, what our stuff is doing because maybe you come from school, you have a scientific background.
So the first thing you would say is that we’re doing this, but we’re not doing that, there is disgrace and those limitations and sometime it scares.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-35" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-35" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay and does that make you uneasy to be bold and go out and say, we’ve solved this?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-22" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-22" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, usually because you want to preserve your integrity, your intellectual honesty, your reputation.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-36" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-36" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Maybe you’re a scientist, you publish books and you make sure there are no mistakes in the book.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-23" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-23" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I don’t know if I can be called a scientist today, but I stick to this in a scientific approach and going to the market selling stuff and doing business generally is a completely different game and intellectually in terms of integrity of communication is a completely different game you have to play.
That was the biggest challenge for me.
And even now but I’m looking, maybe it’s a good transition with your question.
So you mentioned we are co-founders and Taurus would never be here if I was the only one on board.
I think the key people driving the company were Sébastien Dessimoz, Lamine Brahmini who have backgrounds, so they have engineer training, so they did the PFS so they would have the technical understanding and then they have the experience of working with big consulting firms and with financial organizations, private banks, hedge funds.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So they know the language, they have the network and I’ve been learning a lot, in terms of how banks work, how finance is working and that’s maybe our strengths, the fact that we’re complimentary also of the fourth co-founder who has a law background, he’s a lawyer, he worked with FINMA before.
And when you approach a client, then you can talk the same language regarding whether you talk about legal aspects, you talk about financials, you talk about security cryptography, and then it’s easier to gain the trust of the other clients, because ultimately it’s just so cliche, but investors clan, they bet on people because the product will change, the world will change, but the people will stay the same.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-37" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-37" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I mean, in the end, they buy you.
And you are ready and you’re passioned, and they trust you to create a good product.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-24" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-24" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Right and they trust you in being true to yourself because they know you have skin in the game.
So it’s in your interest to make the clients happy too.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-16" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-16" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That’s a good point because it was funny when we pitched to the first couple of investors, we ask them, so what do you look for and they said: the team.
Because sometimes they understand the technology, sometimes not, but it’s fine.
They trust the team; they trust all the people who invest in the same team.
So that’s kind of this network effect, but ultimately it’s exactly what you’re saying.
It’s the team.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-25" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-25" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And Bangerter has a very good reputation and I know him as one out of the people in security, I respect the most in the country.
So not the only one.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-38" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-38" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And you talked about this network effect, so when the first investor signs up, then the other investors gets the signal, okay, we can make the step as well.
Does that work out with your situation as well?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-26" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-26" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Sometimes in this aspect, investors want to feel they are not the only one to believe in the company but sometimes it’s from my experience, it can be the opposite.
They want to be the first to have the best relationship and to be the lead investors and maybe to influence you, I don’t know.
In our case, in the case of Taurus, so we did not start by working with VCs by seeking VC investment, we had quite a different approach.
We did the first round of family and friends, we did an A series last year where we onboarded some new investors, including big blockchain foundations, including banks.
But we don’t have pure VC funds as our investors.
It might change in the next round but currently, we have, let’s say full control of the company.
The founders did have majority equity in the company, but it’s also due to the nature of the company.
I’m not saying that VCs are good or bad, it depends on your approach and as well as I mentioned, they can be very helpful, helping you, first of all, build the network and also, how to approach the market, because VCs tend to have a good network of other companies in the portfolio that they will help you find synergies and they know the mistakes not to make.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-39" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-39" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, I think that’s exactly the same.
So it is not only money that you’re getting, but it’s a network of knowledge that you can then use, and otherwise you would have to buy this knowledge and that would be more difficult.
Yeah, I get that.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>When we look at your two companies Jonas, you stay the two techies learning that, and the investor you’ve mentioned, they’re fairly close to you.
So they’re like on a day to day management they play a role as well.
But if in your case, Jean-Philippe, you’re more a classical firm where you have founders, they already have an executive board.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-27" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-27" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, we have a board, the company, we have an executive committee.
So we have a structure that kind of resembles that of a bank because to be compliant with the bank, we need to have this, let’s say accountability, these specific roles.
So, who is responsible for oversight, who is responsible for operations, and so on.
So, we are very structured for these reasons.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-40" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-40" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, well, you are more flexible because you don’t have to be so clear.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-17" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-17" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Right, the management is essentially the two founders that we have and then we have this advisory board that is more on a pool basis.
If we need to know something, we go, and they’ll pick up the phone.
Exactly, they do pick up the phone every time.
We have the board, which also includes part of the investors and they obviously have a lot of knowledge in how to structure a board, how to on a high level manage a company as well.
But ultimately, it’s still Endre’s and my decision to lead the company where we think it needs to go.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-41" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-41" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
Interesting and you’re like 8 to 10 people now.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-18" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-18" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Exactly.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-42" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-42" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>What is your size now? Because you have the same age as a company.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-28" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-28" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, we are close to 40 and it’s mostly engineers and with the HQ in Geneva, there is another office in Lausanne, where most of the engineers are.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-43" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-43" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And you’re at the stage now where you launched your product, your services, you’re accepting customers, the first step is done.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-29" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-29" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, we have clients.
We’ve been lucky initially because I mean, to make a long story short, the first product we have our flagship product called Taurus Protect which is the technology to store and manage credentials.
So the premise of the company was to find an exchange platform.
So to have an exchange, we needed this kind of storage management solution.
We looked in the market and we did not find anything satisfactory.
So we ended up building our own solution.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-44" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-44" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Ah, that’s interesting.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-30" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-30" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And the story is that in spring 2018 we had a meeting with a bank and they were telling us, they were also looking for this kind of solution and we tell them all, by the way, we’re building our own, we’re considering offering it to the market and they said, okay, so join our RFP [Request for Proposal].&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-45" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-45" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That is not the idea of the company.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-31" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-31" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>But they were maybe 12 entrants inthe RFP and we ended up putting in the RFP and now we are working with a big private bank.
So sometimes you have a plan initially in a start-up, it is good to have a plan, you need to have a plan for three years, but ultimately…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-46" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-46" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>…the market could be completely different.
I think that is typical of a start-up, isn’t it? That as you approach the market you’ll learn and actually that a side product is much more interesting.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-32" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-32" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, and it’s based ultimately in our position, we are really driven by the demand of the clients and their needs.
So we try to listen to them because maybe we might believe as an engineer, engineers, “oh, this is exciting.
You can try this new feature is so cool”, but then the client will say, well, from our perspective, from the business perspective, we want to support this platform that you may not like, and everybody has a different perspective.
So you need to consider all aspects, both on the short term and long term.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-47" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-47" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Because that again has an effect on the company and your long-term plan.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-33" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-33" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, because also a client might say “we want this now in two months”, but you have to consider that there is this new technology being developed that would be matured maybe in one or two years and then the clients that don’t know it, they don’t understand it but in two years.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-48" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-48" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And if you’re always running off the two-month projects, you’ll never beat it.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-34" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-34" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Right.
And you will be left behind because a new start-up will be there.
So, you need to do all the tactical stuff and all the strategical stuff as well.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-19" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-19" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That’s very nicely said, because we also run into this several times.
So on the one hand, you have this internal drive to create something cool out of this technology, but you still need to kind of manage it towards the market and target it towards the market and then the market is, I would say more short term in the sense of, I want this, I want this, I want this.
But on the other hand, you still have to have your internal strategy for the next year, for the next two years.
And as you said beforehand, sometimes you see things that the market might not see or not yet see.
Maybe only certain parts of the market see that then you also need to have a little bit of a belief that what you’re building could be valuable in one year or two years.
Maybe not now, but in a year.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-35" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-35" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, the market might not be right so far.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-20" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-20" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, exactly.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-36" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-36" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Well, the real challenge for you is that the security market and specially, the cybersecurity detection market, it’s often driven by hype and the problem is that clients, they rarely have a way to benchmark to evaluate the efficiency of a product.
So if you look at the big names, they have tons of marketing to do this and that maybe they have good products, I don’t know.
But as a client, you have very few ways to measure how effective is it? Like you buy a new car, you drive the car, you can try it.
But malware detection is very hard because you can detect everything.
It’s easy to detect everything.
You block everything.
The hard problem is to know how to manage false positive, false negative, how to manage risk, how to integrate it in the platform, how to manage performance overhead.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-49" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-49" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And the customer will not notice until he has used it for a certain amount of time.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-21" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-21" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-50" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-50" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That is also a problem where I work.
Okay guys.
Next question: looking at your two websites when I did my research, one thing that struck me is there is a total absence of women in this game.
This tells me, or might tell me two things.
A: start-up world is a man’s world or B: you don’t need women because you have enough good men around.
Who wants to pick up?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-37" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-37" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Hiring is a very important point in the company because I mean, as you mentioned hiring it’s also, you cannot afford getting errors.
People is very important.
So we are very diligent in our hiring process, how we talk to people, how we carry out interviews.
This time we spend talking to people, listening to people and regarding diversity, that’s a conversation we often have because we want to be open, we want to moderate in terms of company culture to be open to your different opinions, different types of people.
And regarding women specifically, so it’s not a surprise that when you put an open position for an engineer, a developer, you receive 50 applications, and if you receive 50 applications, you will likely receive 45 men, that’s how it is.
Then you do the interviews and you hire the people that fit the best and you’re open to any profile.
As a matter of fact, so we have two women in the companies and one who is an engineer and that’s how it is.
The market is such that you put a job application, a job opening.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-51" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-51" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>But it’s not only a matter of recruiting, it’s also who is founding security start-ups in Switzerland and apparently you guys are all male founders and in your company is it’s all males as well.
So there seems that founding a security start-up, it doesn’t seem to be very interesting or less interesting for women and apparently, the pool is smaller.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-38" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-38" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I think it’s evolving, I see more and more women entering this game.
So of course, when you’re a minority entering a world, then you have all the problems of being a minority.
But I think it should not be about you finger pointing but just being open and maybe stating maybe on your website that, okay, you’re open to every application, you encourage this.
Some companies have kind of affirmative action or positive discrimination, some people chose not to do this, I don’t think there’s any good or bad, it depends on your ecosystem, but ultimately what matters a lot it’s the company culture, because many companies they do greenwashing, they put “diversity” on their website but it’s completely hypocritical because internally they don’t have good company culture.
So what we really enforce in the company is a culture of respect, of respect of opinions, avoiding politics and when someone is, let’s say not in line with this, we respectfully tell the person, okay, this was not okay, please be careful next time.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-52" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-52" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Good.
And as you were apparently smaller, is that a problem you already have, or that you’re looking at, or this is something for next year when you’re approaching the 100 employees?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-22" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-22" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So obviously we also want to have an inclusive culture and we have cultural values that we hire for ultimately and if it doesn’t work out, then it doesn’t work out.
But I think it’s a very important point, as you mentioned before, and to have this proper process of hiring and selecting, because if you’re so small, you cannot really make a lot of mistakes.
Otherwise, you end up in the ditch and so the hiring process really has to be focused on avoiding mistakes very early on and we tried to optimize for that and again, it’s good to have people who have done this and created this process before.
I think we also want to drive culture, it’s not as specked out as you mentioned it before.
We’re not there yet, but that will come as well with growth.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-53" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-53" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
Jean-Philippe you said when you do have an engineering position open, you seriously get 40 applications?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-39" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-39" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Well, I just made up this number.
We get an overwhelming majority of men.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-54" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-54" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, but you get a lot of applications when you have a job offer?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-40" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-40" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We tend to receive a lot of applications.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-55" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-55" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That is great because what I hear for other company is, they are scratching …&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-41" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-41" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Well, I said applications, I did not say good applications.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-56" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-56" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Sure, but only the best people are working for you, I presume.
So you weed out all the bad ones and you identify them quickly, but still, at least you can choose.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-42" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-42" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, we do our best, but for certain roles is relatively easy, for other roles it’s much harder.
What has worked well is leveraging your network because people join a company, or when you join a company, well there is of course the salary, the job.
But for many people it’s, well, you join not a new family, but you join new world and you join people.
And it’s important the first impression you make on the person you talk to.
If you are rude, if you’re not respectful… you know, people they will forget the words, but they will remember how you made them feel.
So, you want to be very welcoming to people and people talk or when you do an interview, the people you interview, even if you don’t accept them, they will talk about you with their friends, with their colleagues and word spreads.
So we try to be very, very careful to this and to respect the time of the people we interview both in the positive and negative ways, so we don’t want to waste their time, but we value their time and we take time to answer everybody’s questions.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-57" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-57" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.
I guess that’s – you said this before – you’re not allowed to make a lot of mistakes because if you’re hiring, let’s say a bad apple in a small company that drags you down really.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-23" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-23" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, for us, it would be a tenth of the company.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-58" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-58" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>A tenth of the company and five people are affected and then you have quarrels.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-24" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-24" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Exactly, if you have five hundred people and one or two people are bad apples, it doesn’t fall so much into the way, but with 10 people…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-43" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-43" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We’re lucky in Switzerland, in the management, the work environment, we tend to have a culture of respect of listening to others.
That’s good.
But if you work with many remote people, you might have in, especially if you work remotely, you don’t have people face to face and the language barrier, the cultural difference, you have to be careful to avoid misunderstandings.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-59" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-59" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Absolutely and that naturally creeps in.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-25" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-25" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Especially when you work with engineers who tend to lack people skills.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-60" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-60" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So recruiting is still possible in Switzerland: You find people, it depends on the position, but it’s not like the big corps have eaten up the market and everyone who wants to work in Zurich.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-26" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-26" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>You have of course the big companies that we know in Zurich but sometimes it’s the other way around.
For example, we hired some people who left Google for a variety of reasons.
But I believe in Switzerland, we have some good companies, we have some good schools and the challenge of course from the school’s perspective is to provide training that kind of matches the IT technology evolution and that matches the needs of the market and it’s really hard because I mean, two or three years from now all the cloud-based systems, things like Kubernetes was not the same in terms of low level processors, and now are much more let’s say relevant than it used to be 10 years ago.
So also schools need to adapt.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-61" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-61" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And you see them doing that? Or is that a topic, where you studied at BFH? Like let’s produce graduates that fit the market, like train for future jobs?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-27" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-27" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, I mean, the education I had at the University of Applied Sciences was truly applied.
So we learned a lot of concepts that you can actually apply in the industry.
It’s a bit less theoretical and a bit more practical, let’s say programming courses or a lot of the malware courses and cybersecurity courses that we have are actually a good amount of knowledge for a foundation on top that you can grow.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-44" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-44" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And that’s something, that’s a point I agree with, we have this in the Fachschule, and we have people who do very applied stuff than to work with industry a lot.
So it gets students very close to the market, doing actual things and then we have EPFL, ETH that tend to be more fundamental.
But generally, both places they tend to do their best to be close to industry, to the real world, so to speak, which is not the case in every country.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-62" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-62" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
So that is something that works in Switzerland, you think?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-45" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-45" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>As a French person, as a French citizen, I appreciate this.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-63" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-63" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I was going a bit in that direction, that’s interesting to learn.
There is a map of security start-ups published by Dream Lab Technologies and it’s a huge map, a surprisingly big map.
It just shows how many security start-ups there exist in Switzerland.
I don’t know if you’re familiar with all the names, I don’t understand what most of them do, many of them, I’ve never heard the name, but apparently, they exist.
Why do we have so many security start-ups in Switzerland? Is that a Swiss thing about security? We tend to think it’s a Swiss thing, is that true? Or would Austria or Italy have the same or a larger amount of security start-ups? Do you even know?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-46" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-46" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I think there are multiple factors into play that like we’ve ever seen, but the ones I’ve observed.
So there are of course, like you mentioned, the tradition of Switzerland in terms of security, privacy, and some countries trusting Swiss laws with technology and Swiss people.
There is also support from the public sector with initiatives, I mentioned for example EPFL, they have the center for digital trust.
They had the Trust Valley.
They had projects that were also supported by the local politicians by the Geneva Canton, the Vaud Canton.
So there’s this push from the public sector and of course, another factor is the need or the perceived need because we have, let’s say much more reliance on IT and that’s all the things we see in the news every other day, there’s all the ransomware.
There are all the hacks in the blockchain defined space.
So, from an emotional perspective, what people get out of this is that there’s a lot of things to fix, there are a lot of things to do.
It’s not really fixed so far and then people try to seize the opportunity.
Maybe they have new ideas, maybe they’re motivated by making money.
There’s a lot of reasons we have many start-ups now.
So the question is what is the return on investment? What will be the success rate?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-64" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-64" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That we’ll see, but do you think it’s an active scene and people are interested in that.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jonas-wagner-28" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jonas-wagner-28" class="">
Jonas Wagner:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I think too to add to this list is also, we have plenty of investors and people that are interested not just in security, but in general, if you look at, for example, the Swiss investor club that grew immensely over the last couple of years in terms of the members and in terms of the investments and the amount of investments they did.
So, there’s really a good ecosystem in Switzerland since a couple of years now to actually start a company and find funding for a company.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-65" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-65" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Good, so would you guys generally say it’s a good thing to start a start-up, you would recommend that?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-47" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-47" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, it depends.
It’s always a learning experience regardless of the route you follow.
Of course, there are companies that have many different profiles.
Every company has its strengths and weaknesses.
But from my own perspective I feel some companies enter the field and some of them are, let’s say trying to leverage the fact that we are a Swiss company, but to approach the global market, I feel that even though Switzerland is respected, having a Swiss-made label is not sufficient anymore.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-66" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-66" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Maybe it works in Germany and France, but beyond Europe, doesn’t sell that much.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jean-philippe-aumasson-48" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="jean-philippe-aumasson-48" class="">
Jean-Philippe Aumasson:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>In the countries you mentioned, there are also some companies that are successful because the big companies in these countries and the government for sovereignty reasons they want to, they have to, or they prefer to work with local companies.
So you have company in Germany or France, they only work with companies from that country that do not want to work with Americans for good or bad reasons.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-67" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-67" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Great.
Thank you guys for joining us, thank you for watching and listening on Swiss Cyber Storm in a Nutshell.
This was probably the last edition of this year and the next real thing we’re doing is the Swiss Cyber Storm Conference on October 12th here in Bern, in the Kursaal.
This is going to be an on-site conference for good or worse, but we really try to push through and see you at Swiss Cyber Storm on October 12th.
Thank you.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Transcript of interview with Thomas Süssli and Myriam Dunn Cavelty</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/05/25/transcript-of-interview-with-thomas-sussli-and-myriam-dunn-cavelty/</link><pubDate>Tue, 25 May 2021 00:00:00 +2500</pubDate><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><dc:creator>Adriana Cantaluppi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/05/25/transcript-of-interview-with-thomas-sussli-and-myriam-dunn-cavelty/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Transcript of interview with Thomas Süssli and Myriam Dunn Cavelty&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/adriana-cantaluppi/avatar_hu_77bffc059da4d2f7.webp" alt="Adriana Cantaluppi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Adriana Cantaluppi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>A few weeks ago, we ran our third SCS in a nutshell online interview with Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli, Chief of the Swiss Armed Forces, and Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty from the ETH Center for Strategic Studies.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Please find the video of the interview on &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK3sxH4ldNU">Youtube&lt;/a> and the podcast on our channel at &lt;a href="https://anchor.fm/swiss-cyber-storm">Anchor&lt;/a>.&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="aspect-w-16 aspect-h-9 mt-6 mb-8">
&lt;iframe src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/XK3sxH4ldNU"
title="SCS in a nutshell with Myriam Dunn Cavelty and Lieutenant General Thomas Süssli"
frameborder="0"
allowfullscreen
>
&lt;/iframe>
&lt;/div>
&lt;p>This blog post brings you a few take-aways and further down below the complete transcript of the interview.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Myriam Dunn Cavelty has a 20-year track record with thinking about cyber politics and cyber defense.
She specialized in this area before it was a hot topic and she continues to be one of the few experts on the subject in Switzerland.
Thomas Süssli had an impressive career in the private sector before becoming a full time officer in the army.
For two years, he used to lead the FUB (Führungsunterstützungsbasis), the army’s IT service center that is also home
to its cyber security experts.
And in 2020, he was promoted to be the chief of the Swiss Armed Forces, a signal that cyber defense is becoming more and more an important topic for Swiss military.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Few people read the detailed annual reports of the Armed Forces and so very few people are aware that the military is conducting active missions in the cyber space in networks outside Switzerland today; missions it executes on request of the national secret service.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="my-8">
&lt;blockquote id="the-intelligence-service-can-also-assign-us-certain-tasks-to" class="relative bg-base-200 rounded-xs p-8 shadow-lg">
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&lt;a href="#the-intelligence-service-can-also-assign-us-certain-tasks-to" aria-label="Anchor">
&lt;path d="M9.352 4C4.456 7.456 1 13.12 1 19.36c0 5.088 3.072 8.064 6.624 8.064 3.36 0 5.856-2.688 5.856-5.856 0-3.168-2.208-5.472-5.088-5.472-.576 0-1.344.096-1.536.192.48-3.264 3.552-7.104 6.624-9.024L9.352 4zm16.512 0c-4.8 3.456-8.256 9.12-8.256 15.36 0 5.088 3.072 8.064 6.624 8.064 3.264 0 5.856-2.688 5.856-5.856 0-3.168-2.304-5.472-5.184-5.472-.576 0-1.248.096-1.44.192.48-3.264 3.456-7.104 6.528-9.024L25.864 4z"/>
&lt;/a>
&lt;/svg>
&lt;p class="relative z-10 text-lg italic text-center">
The intelligence service can also assign us certain tasks to complete.
The legal basis for this is always the Intelligence Service.
This is already happening today.
It’s in the ZEO organization as of today.
&lt;/p>
&lt;cite class="mt-4 block text-right text-base-content/70">
— Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli
&lt;/cite>
&lt;/blockquote>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;p>ZEO is the Zentrum für Elektronische Operationen (Center for Electronic Operations); an entity that is prioritized for being moved into the new Cyber Command that the Armed Forces are building.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Myriam Dunn Cavelty went on to explain that Switzerland follows a peculiar architecture in this regard.
In other countries, the military is kept separate from the intelligence services who carry out their cyber operations themselves.
In Switzerland, the Armed Forces can execute cyber missions in foreign networks in the service of the intelligence service in peace time; a mode of operation that is covered by the Intelligence Service Act.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We will see whether the creation of the Cyber Command will raise foreign awareness for these missions or not; Lt. Gen. Süssli has stated in the interview that he is not expecting any troubles in this regard.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The army is exploring artificial intelligence projects that are employed to process information the army gathers from a wide range of sources and sensors.
For Dr. Dunn Cavelty, there is a direct link between AI projects and the push for open data in the sense that free or open access to data will allow everybody or at least also smaller players to carry out such projects themselves.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="my-8">
&lt;blockquote id="one-of-the-big-topics-in-the-future-is-access" class="relative bg-base-200 rounded-xs p-8 shadow-lg">
&lt;svg class="absolute text-primary w-16 h-16 -top-4 -left-4" fill="currentColor" viewBox="0 0 32 32">
&lt;a href="#one-of-the-big-topics-in-the-future-is-access" aria-label="Anchor">
&lt;path d="M9.352 4C4.456 7.456 1 13.12 1 19.36c0 5.088 3.072 8.064 6.624 8.064 3.36 0 5.856-2.688 5.856-5.856 0-3.168-2.208-5.472-5.088-5.472-.576 0-1.344.096-1.536.192.48-3.264 3.552-7.104 6.624-9.024L9.352 4zm16.512 0c-4.8 3.456-8.256 9.12-8.256 15.36 0 5.088 3.072 8.064 6.624 8.064 3.264 0 5.856-2.688 5.856-5.856 0-3.168-2.304-5.472-5.184-5.472-.576 0-1.248.096-1.44.192.48-3.264 3.456-7.104 6.528-9.024L25.864 4z"/>
&lt;/a>
&lt;/svg>
&lt;p class="relative z-10 text-lg italic text-center">
One of the big topics in the future is access to data.
We are trying to push for open data, also in the European Union.
… It’s almost like a democratic approach to AI, that everybody can actually start training AI systems.
&lt;/p>
&lt;cite class="mt-4 block text-right text-base-content/70">
— Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty
&lt;/cite>
&lt;/blockquote>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;p>We thought that was a very interesting thought and definitely an angle to the AI discussion we had not seen before.
Putting this into a research context is of particular interest here, since AI systems are very often black boxes.
It’s the ability to train your own system that allows you to research existing systems and discover their inherent weaknesses and their systematic biases that are often present due to inappropriate training data.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But let’s get back into discussing cyber defense or the role that cyber is playing in the military domain.
Both experts agreed that the term cyber war is stupid, since it transports a wrong image of the whole situation.
There is no cyber war in sight.
But cyber is already a tool that complements the existing military toolbox and it’s an element that is being used in the gray area below the threshold where a war officially starts.
So very much like doing a maneuver near the border or accompanying your fishing boats with military patrol, armies are executing cyber missions to send out certain signals or to achieve certain goals.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="my-8">
&lt;blockquote id="what-concerns-me-a-lot-of-people-think-that-cyber" class="relative bg-base-200 rounded-xs p-8 shadow-lg">
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&lt;a href="#what-concerns-me-a-lot-of-people-think-that-cyber" aria-label="Anchor">
&lt;path d="M9.352 4C4.456 7.456 1 13.12 1 19.36c0 5.088 3.072 8.064 6.624 8.064 3.36 0 5.856-2.688 5.856-5.856 0-3.168-2.208-5.472-5.088-5.472-.576 0-1.344.096-1.536.192.48-3.264 3.552-7.104 6.624-9.024L9.352 4zm16.512 0c-4.8 3.456-8.256 9.12-8.256 15.36 0 5.088 3.072 8.064 6.624 8.064 3.264 0 5.856-2.688 5.856-5.856 0-3.168-2.304-5.472-5.184-5.472-.576 0-1.248.096-1.44.192.48-3.264 3.456-7.104 6.528-9.024L25.864 4z"/>
&lt;/a>
&lt;/svg>
&lt;p class="relative z-10 text-lg italic text-center">
What concerns me: a lot of people think that cyber is going to replace the existing threats.
It’s not, it’s going to make them more dangerous even.
And this is the reality now, cyber is always part of an overall operation.
… In the end, in military terms, it always has been and it’s going to be boots on the ground, that make a difference.
&lt;/p>
&lt;cite class="mt-4 block text-right text-base-content/70">
— Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli
&lt;/cite>
&lt;/blockquote>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;p>So, we do not have to expect an army invading another country by cyber means alone.
But there is a growing number of examples where multi-domain action includes cyber attacks to support the overall mission.
This sure puts things in perspective.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Please find the full transcript of the interview below.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Christian Folini and Adriana Cantaluppi&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;em>P.S.
Please note we smoothed the quotes above a bit for better readability.
See below for the exact wording.&lt;/em>&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#transcript" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="transcript" class="">
Transcript
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This is a transcript of the interview in the “Swiss Cyber Storm in a nutshell” series streamed on YouTube on April 30th, 2021.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Welcome to Swiss Cyber Storm in a nutshell, our third edition of Swiss Cyber Storm in a nutshell.
With me today is Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty from ETH Zurich Center for Security Studies, and Lieutenant General Tomas Süssli, Chief of the Swiss Armed Forces.
We are going to talk about many, many topics today.
Probably I have more in my list than we can cover, but there’s a lot of things to talk about.
The army is on and on in the news and Mrs.
Dunn Cavelty has done a lot of research on these topics.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>One of the latest news has been that the Swiss Army is going to transform a center for cybersecurity, the so called “FUB”, the English abbreviation is very complicated, so we constantly talk of FUB, which is a German term for “Führungsunterstützungsbasis”.
And this is going to be transformed over the course of several years now into a top level Cyber Command.
If we look at this in an international perspective, Mrs.
Dunn Cavelty, how does Switzerland relate to this? Is this a natural step? Are we on the forefront? Or is it about time to finally do this? How would you contextualize this?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Well, I would say it’s all three and it obviously depends, you know, which aspects you focus on etc.
But that armies of the world but also the strategic establishments of the world are taking cybersecurity and cyber defense and cyber offense seriously.
That is absolutely the trend.
And I would say: “Focused strategic thinking about what is needed” – that is also done everywhere.
And it’s good that Switzerland also does it and takes the step carefully, as I know.
And I think one of the big challenges will be to understand what capabilities are needed, and then actually building them up.
Because what we also see internationally is that a lot of states say “yes, we are now having a Cyber Army and a Cyber Command”, but sometimes they don’t follow up with the capabilities and that is a bit of a problem.
And I hope that Switzerland will do better than some other countries.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-1" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-1" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, so you think that it is more than only a signal.
You have to walk the talk.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-1" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-1" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, exactly.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-2" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-2" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
So what do you expect from a Cyber Command what the FUB cannot do, or is not supposed to do right now? What are your plans?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Actually, it is mainly a question of focus.
And gaining this “fighter spirit” we don’t have today.
The current FUB as you call it, in English it’s really boring “Command support Organization” or “Armed Forces Command Support Organization”, it’s a service provider, an IT service provider.
It’s a service provider in the era of Telecom, and not really focused on cyber.
And what we expect here with this is a clear focus to increase the capabilities without having to add more resources.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>At the same time, we are writing a concept, a new general concept for cyber in the armed forces.
And that will describe the future capabilities, and the Cyber Command will just follow that concept.
So, there’s a conceptual, overarching idea and then the Cyber Command will implement that.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-3" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-3" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The way I’ve read your latest press release on the topic was that FUB continues to exist, and you’re building the new organization next to it and then slowly transfer tasks over.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-1" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-1" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>If you conduct big changes, it’s always a question how you do it.
And there are different approaches, one might be more kind of a leadership approach, where you slowly turn all the heads in the organization.
That might be, well, I mean, the benefit of that is you can have a strong culture.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>A second approach might be and that’s not suited for our administration, but then you get rid of all the resources you don’t need.
And then you buy in the skills you need actually.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>And the third approach is what we chose now, is you actually build it in parallel.
So, this dualistic approach, and what we think is this gives us first of all time for conceptual work.
So, to free time to think, to conceptualize, to plan and then slowly implement.
When I say slowly, it’s not that slow.
So, the idea is to have the command up and running with the same capabilities as today, as of 1st of January 2024.
So, for us I would say this is rather fast…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-4" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-4" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>…for a Swiss Army perspective…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-2" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-2" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>… for administration.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-5" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-5" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, now you’re doing cyber security already.
Cyber defense within the FUB is a topic.
The way I understand it, you just said what the tasks are.
But there are these closer-to-cyberwar-tasks that you carry out in the service of other organizations, like the NDB National Secret Service asks the army to carry out a task.
So, this is something that the new Cyber Command will then take over.
Do I get it correctly?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-3" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-3" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Absolutely, yes.
So it’s the intelligence service, which can also task us for certain tasks to complete.
This is always based on the Intelligence Service Act, this is the legal basis for that.
This is already happening today.
It’s in the set ZEO organization as of today…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-6" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-6" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>…which is within FUB.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-4" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-4" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Which is within FUB.
But it is probably a bit of a closed shop within FUB today, and the idea is, those capabilities to also leverage those more in the new Cyber Command.
But those services will also migrate into Cyber Command, probably next year or the year after next year.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-7" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-7" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
So this is the focus, obviously?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-5" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-5" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Is one of the focuses.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-8" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-8" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This Swiss setup where the army in peacetime takes over certain functions that evolve around cyber and cyber defense, active defense, is that the way other countries handle this, or do they have… is the Secret Service not the countries doing this by its own, or is this a Swiss specialty?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-2" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-2" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I think Switzerland is very special.
If you look at our ministry of defense, we have something that not many others have: it does a lot of things, it has the armed forces, it has intelligence, but it also has critical infrastructure protection, or at least civil defense.
And that makes it a very, very special department.
And I think also the weight it has, in the overall architecture, if we go beyond the MoD (Ministry of Defense) now and look at, you know, other actors that are important for cybersecurity in Switzerland, it has a lot of resources.
And I think that is also reflected in how the new strategy that just came out last week, I think, kind of positions the VBS our MoD.
So, it is very special.
And I think there’s a strength in there that we sometimes maybe don’t communicate enough about also to others.
But it also makes comparisons a little difficuLt. And the two “new” laws (I mean they’re not so new anymore) but the two laws [that] were mentioned, they are absolutely crucial.
So the one for the intelligence, but also for the military, where these tasks are now clearly separated.
And there is an ability to make sure that there is also an oversight that is possible, because I think that is one of the topics that are sometimes a bit difficult in other countries where you have a destabilization of trust in civil society etcetera, because you don’t fully understand who is doing what in military and intern in the cyber domain.
And I think Switzerland is in a good position there.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-9" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-9" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So thanks to the law, these responsibilities are now really clear.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-3" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-3" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, more or less, of course.
But I think it’s just there, [there] is a law that you know, very clearly spells out what has to happen in a case that, if a critical infrastructure is involved, etc.
And I think that is needed and it is very good that we have that.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-10" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-10" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
Sounds interesting.
Good.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Before we leave that topic, we reiterate that, so you do carry out certain tasks or missions for Secret Service.
And now you raise this to Cyber Command level.
I get the feeling this will raise awareness about that.
It’s becoming more official.
It’s closer to the nation state afterwards.
Is that anticipated? Is this simply acceptable? Yes, this will happen, so be it? Or is it actually something that you want?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-6" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-6" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It’s actually not something we really…, that’s not the goal of doing this.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But also, I mean, within the Cyber Command or already today within FUB or CSO, we have cyber defense as a capacity, capability.
So, every offense is like our situational awareness in the cyber room.
But it’s also a mobile cyber troops to support our own Armed Forces, or maybe help critical infrastructure.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The second competence is our Cyber Fusion Center, this read defensive part.
That’s where our security operations center is, where our mill cert is.
And then the third capability, the third big part is computer network operations.
And this is for active measures in the cyber room.
So, in a normal situation, as of today, we’re not allowed to [or] not supposed to attack or to [do] active reconnaissance.
It’s always based then on the Intelligence Service Act, and this will remain absolutely the same.
And I’m not too much concerned that if it lifted up one level that it will be more visible.
I’m not too much concerned about that.
But as you said, right, I mean it’s all about the legal basis and the legal basis will remain the same.
Even Mr.
New Cyber Command is not going to change.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-11" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-11" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Thank you.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>In a normal enterprise, big enterprise, army level enterprise or organization, you do operational security with your security officers.
You hire external pentesters to look at your services, new projects, etc.
How do you do new projects, new services within the army? Is this something a capability that you have yourself? Or are you looking up in a phone book and call in a penetration company to test something for you? How’s this happening on a practical level? Because I think army must be very different.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-7" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-7" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It’s not too much different, I would say, I mean, I’m going to disclose the secret to you now: you also do external pentesting.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-12" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-12" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>You do externally?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-8" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-8" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We do.
We actually hire companies or pay companies to do external pentestings.
I’m not going to disclose who is doing it.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-13" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-13" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I think our audience would be aware of that, because they’re very various pentesting companies.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-9" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-9" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So they might be aware of that.
So, but other than that, like project is exactly the same.
So, it’s not too much of a difference.
I mean, different might be like, we fund those projects, we have a very strict funding cycle in administration.
This yearly cycle has to go to Parliament.
But other than that, I would say we handle projects exactly the same way as I experienced in, in my civilian life.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-14" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-14" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And you have done a lot of civilian work.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-10" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-10" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I’ve done some projects in my past, yes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-15" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-15" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, okay.
So, there is not such a big difference now.
Then, what might be a difference is the public interest or focus that you’re getting for these projects? We could say that?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-11" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-11" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Absolutely.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-16" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-16" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Of course, I am leading now slowly into the learning management system where there was the latest breach that was published.
And I was wondering, should you have caught that before it happened? Or why didn’t you catch it? And is that a structural problem that you didn’t catch it? Or was it just bad luck?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-12" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-12" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It’s a bit more complicated than just this.
I mean, first of all, you have to differentiate.
We differentiate two different types of IT infrastructure.
We have the infrastructure really for Armed Forces, which is being used in operations of our Armed Forces.
And then we have all the administrative systems, and we call them green and blue systems.
And blue is really what is part of the administration.
And for blue systems, we do what every other company also does, we outsource.
So, first of all we buy the system, we buy software, and then we give it someone else to host and run it for us.
And this learning management system we are referring to was hosted by a third company, and it’s not a green system.
It’s a blue system.
But that doesn’t mean [anything:] we are still responsible, and responsibilities still comes back to us.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>And then there was not only one incident, there were actually two.
The first one was in January, and this was our cyber conscript’s course.
And they detected the first of these flaws in the system.
And they actually reported it, and we have been able to fix it.
And the second one was approximately one month later, it was a recruit who went home, and he still had access, or he still had the URL of when he had to log in and retry it again.
And then he figured that he could still extract data.
And was actually it was it was a bit of a wake-up call for us.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Potentially, there could have been more than 400,000 data sets being lost.
So far, we couldn’t see anything, we didn’t see anything on darknet or anywhere else or have been offered to buy a pass.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So, we hope that there was no loss of data, no breach, really.
But it was a wake-up call for us.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-17" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-17" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
There is one detail that occurred to me when I re-read the press release today that you relied on the system provider who apparently also hosts it to do the forensics for you and tell you “no, there was no data leakage”.
Why wouldn’t you do this, this forensic analysis yourself?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-13" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-13" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I’m not sure I read the same press release…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-18" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-18" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-14" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-14" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Actually, we did.
It was our own Cyber Fusion Center and MilCert-team, and that was really very closely involved in analyzing these log files.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-19" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-19" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
Good.
Let’s leave this behind.
We have read enough about this.
And I was pleased to hear that this is a wake-up call for you because it’s about operational security as well.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Now, I’ve already mentioned this dirty term cyber war that nobody in this room probably likes, but it’s used a lot.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I think there is a conceptual flaw in here.
When I have a traditional army and it does physical defense or physical attacks, then I think it is relatively easy to link an action with a goal, like [let’s] say you’re interested to get a peninsula somewhere in Europe, and then you invade it, and then you have it.
I think it is much more difficult in the cyber domain to have a certain goal and achieve it with means in cyber in a virtual world, I mean, you don’t want to steal IP addresses.
So where am I wrong here? Or is there really a conceptual problem in this whole this course?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-4" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-4" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>How long do I have? (she laughs) cyber war is my big topic, it’s actually how I got into, you know, studying cybersecurity and politics.
Because at the very beginning in the 2000s, that was the mobilizer, everybody talked about cyber war and very early on I, but also others said “drop that term, it’s not gonna help you!”.
Also “please Armed Forces: don’t use it because it’s wrong”.
And people will have the wrong expectations about the threat and the response capabilities or the possibilities.
I’m sure you know that that pew-pew map where you see how the different [nations] shoot at each other.
And if you don’t get that out of people’s heads, also politicians, you have a problem because you constantly need to explain that cyber operations work differently.
And that you have to use them in different ways.
And you cannot invade a country, via just cyber.
You might use it in addition to military operations…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-20" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-20" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>…So it is part of a multi domain operation.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-5" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Exactly.
I mean, the more digitalized we are, the more clear it is that everybody uses cyber means to achieve strategic, political and military goals.
I think that is already clear.
But this idea that you have what was called “the strategic cyber war” [where] somebody shoots, via the cyber way, and that’s it.
You know, this is the “diehard scenario” where you have that movie where you have the cyber terrorists, and they basically, the whole country is down via cyber.
So, that is completely unreal, but it has a mobilizing component to it.
The media is also to blame partially, even though I think they’re getting better now and being more careful.
But I don’t think we’ll get rid of the term because it just signifies something happening in the military realm.
But I think it does us a disservice, because we keep looking at the military all the time.
When we did that before the Snowden revelations, especially we in academia, before it was clear that it’s not actually the military that we should look at, but the intelligence services that have built up capabilities for a completely different type of operation, which is subversion or something under the threshold of war, the gray zone, so or whatever all those operations that we then started seeing also after 2010, more and more, where you have different goals.
And I said, I mean, they might be linked to actual military invasions.
If you look at Ukraine, for example, you had cyber components there too.
But they work on a different level.
So, I would say term cyber war, forget about it, use cyber operations.
And be very careful in how you talk about the effects and the goals and the motivations that are behind it.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-21" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-21" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And it really only makes sense in a multi domain operation.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-6" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-6" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
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&lt;p>Absolutely, as a as an add on to you know, bigger goals that you have anyway, that are often geopolitical, or political, strategic, whatever.
And it’s a tool in a toolbox basically, that you have at your disposal, just that and not more.
And it is enough, that it is this.
But if you don’t understand it, but it should also be seen in a context.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-22" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay.
Think the toolbox idea very much resonates with an army, I suppose.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-15" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Absolutely.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-23" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-23" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>There are more options.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-16" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-16" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And I very much agree.
And I’m very happy you said that, because we also try to avoid the term cyber war.
There is sometimes cyber in war, which is we talk about ends, means and ways to achieve a goal and cyber is just a mean, and you mentioned the multi domain operation.
And this is exactly how we think.
What concerns me a bit, a lot of people think that cyber is going to replace the existing threats.
It’s not, it’s going to make them more dangerous even.
And this is the reality now and cyber is always part of an overall operation.
And as you [Dr. Dunn Cavelty] said before, we never saw actually that cyber will switch off the light in the country, on its own.
And at the end in military terms, it always has been and it’s going to be boots on the ground, that makes a difference.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-24" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And this will stay around.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-17" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
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&lt;p>It’s what we see in all these examples: It starts with cyber, but it also starts on political level, on the economic level.
Criminality plays a big role, and then it’s cyber, it’s information operation.
But then finally, those are the boots on the ground that are going to make the difference or the decision.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-25" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>…when it gets real somehow.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-18" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-18" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>When it gets real, yes.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-26" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay.
Yes.
I got that.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Now there we have the law that defines what the army is allowed to do, where it’s going to be employed.
What scenarios do you see or plan with, where you see the new Cyber Command being actually used in the future when it becomes active?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-19" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-19" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
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&lt;p>I’m going to start with the most dangerous, which is probably defense operations.
So, where there is an attack by state or non-state actor against Switzerland, where we see cyber being used in such cases.
First is to defend our own networks.
And then secondly, also be prepared to do active measures, active measures, also to say, right now, the legal basis is either it’s Intelligence Service Act, or then it’s the military act, but then it needs Federal Council approval, which is very difficuLt. But then in case of a real conflict, the army then can conduct attacks on its own responsibility.
So, this will be the extreme, one extreme.
And the more we also see is in case of severe cyber attacks against critical infrastructure, but then this will be like in COVID, like supporting the hospitals, this will be also – I will call it – subsidiary to civilian needs.
So, the army can then go and help critical infrastructure.
And this is also we’re prepared to do and we’re going to prepare ourselves as mobile cyber teams to do that.
But that’s not something actually I really expect, because it’s always every company, every network, every critical infrastructure is different.
And at the moment where the attack already happened, there’s not a lot we can do anymore.
So, it’s more about crisis management, about seeing whether the backup was there or not.
So, I’m not sure this is really something a realistic picture.
In prevention of a cyber attack it’s very difficult because the weakest part is obviously human being.
So, it’s the human sitting in front of a computer.
And we cannot put a soldier besides every user making sure he doesn’t click that email or open that attachment.
So, I’m not sure it is really a realistic scenario, but we prepare for that.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-27" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-27" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay, yes, I get that.
I was pleased to hear that you don’t really expect that scenario, because it’s somewhere a bit in the room with National Cyber strategy and the army is now doing that, and I think a lot of people are afraid that the army is knocking on the door, please, please give me a keyboard, I want to connect to your network now.
So good to hear it is not very likely.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Switzerland, or our national teams, took part in European military exercise in February.
We also were invited to participate at the NATO Locked Shields exercise.
[These] exercises happen every year, every two years.
Is this something that is important for an army like ours? Do you compete for fun? Or is it actually interesting for you to learn?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-20" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-20" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
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&lt;p>There might be some fun to it.
It is not completely right.
Now, but for us it’s important is it’s kind of a benchmarking, because we cannot benchmark with like the economy, we cannot benchmark with banks.
And it’s also like relationship building or a network building with other counterparts in other countries.
And this is really very fruitful and important to us.
And also we have seen in the past Locked Shields you mentioned, also it was it was important to see where we stand.
I was also like, for us it was good to see we are not at the end, but we were not the beginners neither.
We were somewhere in the midfield.
That was good to see that.
We don’t have the budgets other countries have.
That was very important for me to see also, that we spend the budget for the right capabilities.
Yeah, that’s like kind of a benchmarking to us.
And also it was kind of fun though.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-28" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-28" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>It’s good to hear.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Do you think that is generally something that army struggles with to like the benchmarking? Where are we? Are we good? Set for a serious lack of wars, to train or…?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-7" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-7" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
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&lt;p>Yes of course, it’s hard to benchmark because a lot of it is secret.
That is the nature of the cyber domain, because a lot of it is in the Intel, a lot of it is about capabilities and practices that you just don’t see.
Even getting budgets is difficuLt. That’s why visiting other countries and trying to find out what they’re really doing is I’m sure important.
The benchmarking and the exercising I think we could do more here.
The budget was mentioned, but if something that we add at the ETH also think should be supported more not only for the Swiss, but also in general: to have a good wargaming or tabletop exercising capability that people can draw on, especially in the cyber domain, especially then also going beyond the cyber.
Because one of the things that are difficult are those scenarios that are likely to have a cyber component but not only and how do you exercise that? How do you get those teams together that you know…, Because there I think that is where the difficulty will come from.
It’s not if you get the like-minded people together that already know each other, you might have a good exchange daily anyway you understand each other.
But what if then suddenly you have somebody from a hospital that you need to talk to? Those are the difficult scenarios, and I think more could be done here.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-29" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-29" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
So that becomes a cultural issue afterwards, no longer a technical issue, it becomes about humans.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-8" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-8" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes definitely.
I mean, that’s my big topic.
Also.
I mean, nothing here was technical so far, but I think we have a tendency still, to think cybersecurity too technical.
And we often forget the other skills that are needed.
I mean, somewhere mentioned, crisis management has nothing to do with the technical.
You need different skills.
And I think we’re also when we think about recruitment, or you know, the workforce in the future, or education, we sometimes forget to think about those interconnections to other realms.
What do we need? Also, you know, of course, the forensics was mentioned, to the law, also the policy field.
Which is mine.
What kind of specialist do we need to understand inter linkages between cyber, or the next thing that’s coming.
I hope we can talk about the future because now we’re just saying cyber, and we think we know what cyberspace is, but who knows what we will have in 10 years? It might look different than what we have now.
And how do we make sure that we have people that understand that future technology? Because I mean, that is a big problem also with education: we constantly educate backwards, basically.
We have our ideas, and then we educate in four years times we have to specialists, but maybe they don’t fit anymore.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-30" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-30" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yeah, that is a possibility.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-9" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-9" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And I think that’s a challenge.
Absolutely not only for the armed forces, or everybody also for us educators, higher education.
How do you make sure you have people that can smartly adjust to new developments also in technology.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-31" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-31" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>For the next 40 years after they leave University.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-10" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-10" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Exactly.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-32" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-32" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Let’s talk about artificial intelligence.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Before you became head or chief of the Swiss Army, you already as the head of the FUB, pushed for artificial intelligence, or you mentioned it in public speeches, that this was an important topic for you, that you were developing capabilities.
I looked up a presentation, the cyber defense campus organization quoted you saying “artificial intelligence will in the foreseeable future add a new dimension to decision making”.
In January when you gave an interview in the NZZ you or your successor as leader of the FUB said, that sensors will be equipped with artificial intelligence or the processing of sensor-signals will be equipped with artificial intelligence to condense the data they’re receiving into knowledge, somehow.
Is this one of the capabilities that you want to focus on the Cyber Command? Or how where do we stand two years later? Is the foreseeable future already here? Or how foreseeable is it?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-21" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-21" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It actually is foreseeable as we are in the process of planning it right now.
What I was referring to then, is what we call the sensor to shoot loop, or we have the sensors, then we have our intelligence service internally, then we have decision making, and then we have the like the effectors, where we provide an effect.
And digitalization for armed forces means also to automate that cycle and digitalize it.
And the sensors the idea is really to out of all operations spheres, to take sensor data out of like the air, space, ground, electromagnetic room, and integrate those sensor data to recognize new patterns in that and gain knowledge out of that.
That was what we were referring to.
And in order to do that, because data becomes so big if you start to integrate all sensors, and all spheres, that needs artificial intelligence.
There’s one application of artificial intelligence.
There’s another one and when I talk about cyber artificial intelligence, I am always referring to the good, the bad, the ugly application of artificial intelligence.
Good is where we use it to recognize an intruder in the to our networks that can be used for that.
The bad application of artificial intelligence might be to break hash codes.
And the ugly might be to use artificial intelligence to intrude and to actually to fulfill tasks which took months so far.
If you go into a network this horizontal detection that takes weeks or months, and we fear a bit of what we see, we have concerns that this could be done in in hours in the future, using artificial intelligence.
That will be the good, the bad, the ugly application of artificial intelligence.
And this will be actually a concern of Cyber Command, the automation of digitalization of sensor to shoot to loop, the Cyber Command will provide the digital infrastructure, but then this will be the joint operation command conducting those kinds of actions then.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-33" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-33" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>You confirmed that it’s a lot of data, a lot of signals coming from the sensors.
And it’s more than humans can possibly process.
That’s why you want artificial intelligence.
Now,on a conceptual level, you don’t control the signal of the sensor, that’s the point of the sensor is placing it there.
And then your enemy triggers the signal.
So, you’re basing your knowledge or intelligence on signals controlled by the enemy somehow.
And that is then something you base your decision on.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Is this too short thought?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-22" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-22" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I’m not sure.
I mean, what we do is, what we do today is we have human sensors, also detecting what they see, what they hear, what they get.
And in the future, this will be digital sensors, that’s going to be replaced, but it’s always the same.
So, either you see an aircraft or not, or you hear it or you detect it in the electromagnetic sphere.
That’s not going to change.
It’s just a lot more of data.
And it’s the way we integrate it.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-34" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-34" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I’m not sure I buy into this, because I think if, if an expensive system, especially if it’s a pet project by the big boss, says something, it’s very different from a human person say “look, I get the feeling I’ve seen an airplane”.
Because this is afterwards, it’s like on paper, it’s printed, this is now official.
And in a very hierarchical organization like the army, somebody to question such an official statement by a machine will be very hard.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-23" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-23" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I don’t even think this is comes down to hierarchy.
So it’s more kind of sure, still, the analysts will be human beings, isn’t it? So again, out of the sensors, we gain information.
But then knowledge is only a human being who makes knowledge out of that.
And it will, at least in Swiss armed forces will always be a human who makes the decision.
So, I’m not too concerned about that.
And that doesn’t relate to hierarchy.
It’s always an analyst, and he will receive a lot of data.
And he will have to make up his own mind on what the intention of an enemy might be.
So, this is always an analyst, I’m not too concerned about that.
But the amount of data is going to grow.
And new opportunity is not having more data, but to integrate the data out of all the spheres.
So, space, air, ground, and electromagnetic room and also information room.
That’s a new aspect to it.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-35" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-35" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, okay.
Yes, I think I get that.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I presume that Switzerland is doing what all the armies are doing in this domain?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-11" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-11" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, probably less than some big ones, as we know, but not because they don’t want to, but because Switzerland is too small to be a big mover in AI right now.
So, it’s about data.
And we know that in terms of geopolitics, data becomes much more important also for the training of systems for, for AI systems, etc.
So, for me, one of the big topics in the future is access to data.
So, we are also trying to push for open data movement, also in the European Union for open data.
So that you know there is some, it’s almost like it a democratic approach to AI, that everybody can actually start training AI systems.
Also for example so that we can see whether there are biases in the system.
This is more important for the civilian domain right now already, you know, where you have facial recognition that – we know that from the States – for example, doesn’t recognize black faces, or female black faces, because the machine is only trained on men all the time.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-36" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-36" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And white men.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-12" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-12" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>White men, exactly.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So, there are a lot of biases that could come in.
And I think with the, in the military domain, the big fear, and that has been discussed for many years already, is the lethal armed weapon systems which shoot by themselves, and we are far from that.
I think and Mr.
Süssli has said it, this is not in our [plan].
We don’t plan to do that.
I don’t say nobody plans to do it.
So that’s why there’s a lot of debate on the international level about banning those systems because they’re potentially dangerous.
But I think whether there’s a human in the loop or not, that is the big difference.
And so far, most armies have a human in the loop, even the big ones.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-37" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-37" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>…and we are grateful for that.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-13" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-13" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>We are, yes.
But who knows what the world looks like if the machine takes over, maybe it’s a better world who knows?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I think what’s important with technology and if you start linking them up with politics and war and all these kinds of things, is always to balance your views.
To see the good, the bad and the ugly, because there’s never just one aspect there.
And the tendency of human beings to either love technologies, that’s the optimist, or hate technologies is something that we all have in us, and I think we should have, we have to balance it, we have to look at it very carefully.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>AI is a very good case in point, like it’s already there in cybersecurity.
You have AI applications and machine learning for offense or defense.
Whether the one or the other is going to be better, we simply cannot answer this question.
It’s impossible.
It’s a very dynamic development that goes into the future and will have a lot to do with governance or integration into organizations, for example.
Technology by itself doesn’t really tell you a lot about what is going to happen.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-38" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-38" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Or we kind of need to do this to learn, anyway.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-14" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-14" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And you cannot stop AI and machine learning at this point in time, that is – and quantum! That’s the next big topic that’s also going to come.
That’s why I’m saying we are now still in this – also with the term Cyber defense – assumes that there is a system that we constantly need to patch because it has vulnerabilities and nobody knows them all.
AI is used to actually discover vulnerabilities.
So that’s a good use of AI right now.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But I am not sure that this is the future, we might really have a completely different digital, let’s say on Supra, or infrastructure there that we could start thinking about, that might no longer be linked to this let’s say “cat and mouse game”.
That is optimistic, but it is possible.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-39" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-39" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>If I’m reading through different strategy papers, not only the army, but all the National Cyber strategy, contingency plans, etc.
it resonates a lot with your research papers or research papers of your Think Tank, the Center for Strategic Studies at the ETH.
So, I guess there is an exchange happening here, obviously, this is your client.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-15" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-15" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, for many many years, absolutely.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-40" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-40" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Would you say that Switzerland or the army is a good student?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-16" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-16" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Oh, absolutely.
But they’re not students.
I think we don’t educate anybody.
We really just propose options.
We often study how others do it.
You asked me how does Switzerland compare? Very often we look at approaches of other countries and then kind of draw lessons from that and then, often in a dialogue with our partners in the administration, we start talking about what could be changed or not etc.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-41" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-41" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, it’s like, an autonomous execution of your ideas?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-17" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-17" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Not always, of course, no, it should be an input into a process that is not ours to steer.
So, it’s an invitation to read interesting things.But I would say that the administration, and the army belongs to the administration, is its own animal.
And as because you asked in Switzerland, there is many, many, many peculiarities that we need to know.
And one of them is that you cannot steer just from one end.
And then you know, expect it to go into the direction that you hope it will…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-42" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-42" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That is probably not working in Switzerland.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-18" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-18" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>No, and probably not in other countries either.
But I mean, that’s a reality.
And I think trial and error is important, too.
And learning is always doing certain things badly and changing them.
And I think we’ve come a long way.
And with the new strategy, as I said, I think that everything’s there that needs to be there.
The roles are clear, roles, responsibilities, and the different tasks.
Whether that will be executed as it is said, that is a different thing.
But I think the basis is there.
Is good.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-43" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-43" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Good.
Good to hear.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I got the impression there is an ongoing struggle between the civil part of the cyber defense, let’s say MELANI, NCSC and the army.
Like who is given, or particularly: can NCSC, can Florian Schütz give you orders on security, on server hardening? Can they request your data to analyze it themselves? And it seems they’re in advantage right now and I think it was in the January interview that you gave.
You said we’re going to overhaul the law because this is the Army’s domain.
And we want to remain completely autonomous.
Is that the situation? Is there this rat race or this continuous struggle?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-24" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-24" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The question is on what data we exchange actually, and what we talk about.
First of all, we accept very much what Florian Schütz is doing.
And what he did is, he established like a map of all we do at administration level.
And then he identified the white spots, he is in process of filling them now.
And he always, he also did detected application.
But then I refer to I was explaining before the green and blue type of systems.
And the problem is the green systems: First of all, they are fully encapsulated, not connected to our other infrastructure.
Okay, so it’s like an island, it’s easier to protect.
And then also, many of those systems are classified.
So if you disclose flaws in those systems, and those information goes into another system and into another system.
So, if someone will actually gets hold of that data, it’s very easy than to break it.
So that’s our concern.
So what we say is actually we exchange information on floors, we detect ourselves in that environment, we exchange that.
We respect very much his ideas, his concepts, and also his instructions.
But we play it in our own responsibility.
That’s actually the differentiation.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>And right now the law, the legal basis for our own systems, is still that the systems of armed forces are still part of the administration, which is not ideal in every case, especially when…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-44" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-44" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, you want to separate this more.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-25" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-25" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, that’s the idea.
And also to say we work very closely with MELANI.
So, I would say it’s even on a daily basis, so there’s a very close cooperation.
So, there’s no reason for concerns.
And also after the interview in NZZ, I had a chat with Florian Schütz.
I think he was a bit upset in the beginning.
But then we have been very, very able to explain to him why we actually need this separation.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-45" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-45" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And how you differentiate between the blue and the green systems.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-26" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-26" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Absolutely.
And I think it’s also a relief to him, because in those systems in those green systems, classified, separated, isolated, he won’t be too much involved in that.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-46" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-46" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
Good.
We’re soon coming to an end here.
And I need to select my remaining questions now.
Let’s return to cyber politics, your research topic.
What are you researching right now?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-19" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-19" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Oh, yes.
How long do I have now?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-47" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-47" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>You have three minutes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-20" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-20" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, I think something that has become apparent in the last few years is the importance of private companies in cybersecurity, but also actually in shaping cyber threat knowledge.
And I’m referring to threat Intel companies, many of them American, that, at least for us, again, academics or civil society, or people in the society, they provide the knowledge that we have of what’s going on in cyberspace.
And very clearly, this is hugely biased.
Because there’s a commercial interest, there is a closeness to the political decision making.
Already many people go in and out of politics and back to companies.
And that is an issue that we have.
We believe we do not have the full knowledge, we do not know who shoots first, – I’m using a horrible term now- and if we do not have a better and let’s say, broader idea of the cyber threat landscape, we cannot understand political dynamics well.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-48" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-48" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And that links to this open data discourse as well.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-21" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-myriam-dunn-cavelty-21" class="">
Dr. Myriam Dunn Cavelty:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Exactly.
This is something that we are working towards.
I can’t tell you what the solutions will be.
But one idea is obviously that academic institutions could take a stronger role here also to provide cyber threat knowledge or attribution knowledge.
Because very often, this is about attribution, that somebody points a finger at somebody else and we cannot really verify whether that’s true or not.
So, that is something that we’re working on and that I think it is important also for a better understanding as I said of the dynamics, but also what can be done in cyber and what the effects are, not only in cyber, but you know, societal, political, etc.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-49" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-49" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Great.
It’s interesting.
You [Lt. Gen. Süssli] mentioned that the Cyber Defense Campus or I’ve got the impression it’s a project that is dear to you.
It is a new initiative that brings together capabilities.
I reckon it integrates with all the recruitment you’re doing, the recruits that you are educating.
What is your wish in there? Where do you want to take this?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-27" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-27" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Actually, I think what is really missing for armed forces is very difficult to talk to academia.
I mean, except ETH… I had to say this now.
No, really, I mean that’s close cooperation.
And even they, in our capability development process, ETH CSS is very important, because what you do is you actually prove our concepts and give us feedback and that’s the importance of this relationship.
But to us, it’s very difficult to get access to startups and companies.
And the Cyber Defense Campus to me is a neutral platform where everyone can meet where Armed Forces where economy, academia can come together, exchange information or build a network in a neutral environment.
And that’s the importance of that.
And then the other ideas to sooner or later build an ecosystem, a cyber ecosystem in Switzerland, where actually, the economy, big companies can state their requirements for cyber tools.
And the Cyber Defense Campus could be the platform, where we initiate the building of those solutions and tools together with startups and our forces.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So my final vision is this ecosystem.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-50" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-50" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That sounds very Israeli to me, somehow.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-28" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-28" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>There is an idea actually, in Israel we see Be’er Sheva.
But then we see also like Team 8, and Team 8 follows a very similar approach.
So, there’s also a relationship, a huge network to the industry.
So, they get ideas, and then they build solutions to them.
But it’s always commercially driven, at least what I see.
And this will be more like government driven, this approach.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-51" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-51" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, that is the difference.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#lt-gen-thomas-s%c3%bcssli-29" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="lt-gen-thomas-süssli-29" class="">
Lt. Gen. Thomas Süssli:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, there is something new and maybe something is specific, always called a helvetism.
So, it’s the helvetic solution, the Swiss solution for the same issue.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-52" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-52" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Lieutenant General Süssli, Mrs.
Dunn Cavelty.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>That was an interesting talk.
Unfortunately, we have to cut it at a given moment.
Thank you for your interest in our “Swiss Cyber Storm in nutshell”.
We’ll be back in August with our next edition.
We plan to talk about or talk with security startups in Switzerland.
And on October 12th there will actually be the Swiss Cyber Storm conference.
We hope to do this a couple of stories up here in the Kursaal in Bern as a physical conference.
And if that fails for whatever reason – I can’t think of anything – then it’s going to be a virtual conference.
But we really plan to push through.
Thank you very much.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Transcript of interview with Tobias Ospelt and Raphaël Arrouas</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/03/15/transcript-of-interview-with-tobias-ospelt-and-raphael-arrouas/</link><pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2021 00:00:00 +1500</pubDate><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><dc:creator>Adriana Cantaluppi</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/03/15/transcript-of-interview-with-tobias-ospelt-and-raphael-arrouas/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Transcript of interview with Tobias Ospelt and Raphaël Arrouas&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/adriana-cantaluppi/avatar_hu_77bffc059da4d2f7.webp" alt="Adriana Cantaluppi" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Adriana Cantaluppi
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>Two weeks ago we ran our second SCS in a nutshell &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTCljaQVlTU&amp;amp;ab_channel=SwissCyberStorm">online interview&lt;/a>, that we also published as a &lt;a href="https://anchor.fm/swiss-cyber-storm">podcast&lt;/a> under this name.
This blog posts brings you a few strong take-aways and further down below the complete transcript of the interview.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Our guests were penetration tester Tobias Ospelt from Pentagrid and freelance bug bounty hunter Raphaël Arrouas.
Both have a background in pentesting, but Raphaël decided to quite his job and work on his own schedule as a professional bounty hunter in Switzerland.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I used to think competing with other bounty hunters globally would be very tough because of the high costs of living in Switzerland.
Yet more and more programs pop up in Switzerland and there seems to be a strong interested in local bounty hunters.
So Raphaël is being invited to many private programs.
Working as a freelance can be hard at times, yet it also brings a lot of flexibility:&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="my-8">
&lt;blockquote id="you-need-to-stay-focused-you-need-to-stay-organized.-sometimes" class="relative bg-base-200 rounded-xs p-8 shadow-lg">
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&lt;/a>
&lt;/svg>
&lt;p class="relative z-10 text-lg italic text-center">
You need to stay focused, you need to stay organized.
Sometimes it’s really hard, but this flexibility is quite good, because it helps me have time to take care of my family.
&lt;/p>
&lt;cite class="mt-4 block text-right text-base-content/70">
— Raphaël Arrouas, bug bounty hunter
&lt;/cite>
&lt;/blockquote>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;p>We are maybe witnessing a golden period for bounty hunting in Switzerland.
But Tobi was quick to point out it might be followed by a hangover once the number of bounty hunter explodes and the bounties come down.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>That put aside, what’s in for the companies? It seems that security reports from a bug bounty program tend to be handled differently.
The processes get streamlined, the findings reach the developers faster, issues are more likely to be resolved.
But we could not really pinpoint why that was the case.
Maybe it is the start of a new program that initiates a cultural change.
Tobias Ospelt did a very good job describing a modern penetration test and it seems it is all there already.
Companies just need to make good use of it.&lt;/p>
&lt;figure class="my-8">
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&lt;/a>
&lt;/svg>
&lt;p class="relative z-10 text-lg italic text-center">
If you order a penetration test, but you’re not after the risks, and you don’t want to fix them, then why do you do them at all? That’s like buying a gym subscription at the beginning of the year, and then not going to the gym, right?
&lt;/p>
&lt;cite class="mt-4 block text-right text-base-content/70">
— Tobias Ospelt, penetration tester
&lt;/cite>
&lt;/blockquote>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;p>So it may sound like the two methods / business models lead to very similar results.
Yet both guests agreed that penetration testing should come first, mainly because it is easier to control.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>If you’ve never done pentesting, I think it’s probably a very bad idea to start a bug bounty program.”
— Tobias Ospelt, penetration tester
Raphaël went on to explain that private bug bounty programs are evolving rapidly and that there are ways to start with a bug bounty program directly if you know what you are doing.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>For a bug bounty hunter like Raphaël, the Swiss criminal law is a real hreat.
You would expect this to be less of a problem for a pen-tester like Tobias, who works on a written contract with his customers.
Yet Tobias said he was not sure his company would protect him when things went South and he made a major mistake on a job.
Raphaël explained that the Swiss criminal law – paragraphs 143bis and 144 – simply does not acknowledge the existence of good faith security researchers.&lt;/p>
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&lt;path d="M9.352 4C4.456 7.456 1 13.12 1 19.36c0 5.088 3.072 8.064 6.624 8.064 3.36 0 5.856-2.688 5.856-5.856 0-3.168-2.208-5.472-5.088-5.472-.576 0-1.344.096-1.536.192.48-3.264 3.552-7.104 6.624-9.024L9.352 4zm16.512 0c-4.8 3.456-8.256 9.12-8.256 15.36 0 5.088 3.072 8.064 6.624 8.064 3.264 0 5.856-2.688 5.856-5.856 0-3.168-2.304-5.472-5.184-5.472-.576 0-1.248.096-1.44.192.48-3.264 3.456-7.104 6.528-9.024L25.864 4z"/>
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&lt;p class="relative z-10 text-lg italic text-center">
I’d say that the Swiss law is insufficient when it comes to good faith security researchers (…) if the company pursues a charge against you for intrusion, if you did the intrusion and it was in good faith and you did nothing and you have contacted the company and so on, well you can get into trouble.
&lt;/p>
&lt;cite class="mt-4 block text-right text-base-content/70">
— Raphaël Arrouas, bug bounty hunter
&lt;/cite>
&lt;/blockquote>
&lt;/figure>
&lt;p>We’ll see if this can be resolved in the longer run.
Changing the criminal law is probably more difficult than killing the Swiss law on EID in a popular vote.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Please find the full transcript of the interview below.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Christian Folini and Adriana Cantaluppi&lt;/p>
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&lt;h2 id="transcript" class="">
Transcript
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>&lt;em>This is a transcript of the interview “Swiss Cyber Storm in a nutshell”, streamed on Youtube on February 24th, 2021.&lt;/em>&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Welcome to Swiss Cyber storm in nutshell, the program where we talk about security topics from a Swiss perspective.
Our guests today are, on my left penetration tester, Tobi Ospelt, founder of Pentagrid, a small pentesting gig up in Grisons and on my right Raphaël Arrouas, a successful freelance bounty hunter, who came here for our talk today.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>My guests have a lot in common.
They are both expats living in Switzerland.
Tobias grew up in Liechtenstein, and Raphael has a French passport.
Both were employed for several years as penetration testers, and they both decided [that] they no longer want to do this.
For Tobias the response was to fund his own penetration testing company, to be his own boss, and Raphaël went fully professional as a bug bounty hunter.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Tobi, before we want to dive right in, I want to say that I have a stake in this because I’m in close contact with one of the bug bounty companies in Switzerland.
But that’s not the reason we’re doing this here.
The reason is, this is an important topic.
And I’ve invited two experts here to talk about the differences and the similarities between penetration testing and bug bounty hunting.
So Tobias, do you get the feeling that Raphaël is eating your cake? Is he taking away your business? How’s it working right now?&lt;/p>
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Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>Hi, Christian.
No, I don’t think so.
I think bug bounty hunting and penetration testing are two not totally different things, but two things that have very different rules and very different environments.
And not only rules in the technical sense, and what you’re allowed to do, like the scope and so on, but also in the economic part.
And that’s why we’re going to talk about it because it’s not the same, right? I think penetration testing has been around for a longer time and it also provides often more context, that’s at least my opinion.
You can also get a lot of security consulting with the penetration test.
So, you can get, I would say, more information around your bugs whereas bug bounty is more focused on single bugs, usually.
So just a small example what we usually provide: if we have two bugs, and they’re low severity, but they play together, you can get a high risk bug, right? And the more you get to know a company, and the more pentests you do, the more you build up a security knowledge about the company, the environment and everything and you can provide services.
So, I think there’s an added service to penetration testing.
And I also think there’s plenty of bugs out there, that have to be found yet.&lt;/p>
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Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>There are enough bugs for everybody.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-1" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>There are enough bugs for everyone.
And then, I think that you need a higher security maturity, to do or to have a bug bounty program at all.
I mean, for small companies, that’s not possible to do a bug bounty program.
And if you’ve never done pentesting, I think it’s probably a very bad idea to start a bug bounty program.&lt;/p>
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Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>At the start? Okay, yes.&lt;/p>
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Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>I think it’s really good to get a very large scope.
But then also this large scope.
I mean, pentesting can also be internal pentesting, at internal network.
And how you provide that, in a bug bounty group program will be hard.
How do you provide access to everyone to your internal network? Do you want to do that? And here is the last factor in that: trust.
You can trust bug bounty hunters but how bug bounties are set up, it is made for everyone.
So, you have to trust everyone, which is not that easy, right? So, you have to be really sure with your own security, to be able to stand there and say, “Everyone is allowed to hack me because I’m pretty good already”.
So, I think when you invite the pentester, you get a better opinion and you can also do with the report whatever you want, and you can use it however you want, and you are in charge.
Whereas for bug bounties, you can set your own rules – that is also another topic we need to talk about probably-, but it also means that somebody else outside your trust zone might have knowledge about your security bugs, and you have to be prepared for that.
You have to think about that.
You have to be ready for that.&lt;/p>
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Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay, this penetration testing thing sounds like a very, very good thing.&lt;/p>
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Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>Yes.&lt;/p>
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Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>That was good advertising.
Raphaël, what can you bring to the table what he cannot? Do you see an additional value, while he says it’s complimentary?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;p>Well, first of all, most of what he said of course is true.
But this mainly applies to public bug bounty programs.
Because nowadays, I would say that 80% of all bug bounty programs are private and use vetted, selected researchers.
And so, you might have more flexibility with your rules, and even give some access, some accounts on scopes that need to be audited.
It is true that for maturity, it is better to do penetration tests beforehand.
However, you know you have new options in bug bounty programs, where you can have bug bounty programs for a limited time, and a cut level of bounties that you wish to award.
So, these concerns can be resolved with private bug bounty programs.
And I think that although penetration tests bring consultancy to the table, bug bounty hunting brings flexibility on the table, because you are more flexible.
For example, let’s say you want to retest a vulnerability, after you have submitted a penetration test.
Then in most cases you would need to sign a new contract with the penetration testing company.
And with the bug bounty hunting as there’s virtually no bounding contract, then you can just ask the researchers, “Okay, can you retest this for me? And maybe you will have an additional bounty if you managed to bypass my fixed”.
So, there were times where I bypassed a fixed three times, because the fix wasn’t sufficient.
And so, I guess that penetration testing brings more consultancy, for example, in a penetration test.
Then you are able to indicate the remediation after you find a vulnerability, because you can spend time on the recommendation of libraries, of applications, and you may propose a remediation fix for the vulnerabilities you find.
But in bug bounty programs, you will be able to spend time on verifying the fix.
And also there is more flexibility as it’s not limited in time, potentially, so you may have continuous operational security.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-5" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-5" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yes, it’s certainly a main difference.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-4" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>I think, though, you can also get all that flexibility in pentesting.
I think, in the end it’s just a contract and some rules on what you agree on.
I mean, we have customers that just buy certain days per year, or something like that, or a rolling release.
So, we can always do the retesting as well.
And that’s also a standard procedure on our site.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-6" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
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Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>But now, if I can do both with each of the options, why would I ever do the two.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-5" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-5" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I mean, that’s where I think pentesting and bug bounty hunting are very similar.
At the end, if you do all the technical rules, and the rules about engagement and scope, and you are really rotating them as you want, then I think you get both sides of the same.
But bug bounty has the economic twist, right? It has another rule of economics.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-7" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-7" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So, from a company perspective, it can look relatively similar, but for the person conducting it, it’s a whole different ballgame, isn’t it?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-6" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
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Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>Yes, but also for the company it can be very different.
If you pay for every bug that is critical, you have to pay for every bug that is critical.
If your security posture is not good and you probably pay for one pentest and you get five critical findings, that’s maybe better economic wise than having a bug bounty.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-8" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay, so you will conclude, or would you agree that first do a pentesting thing before you start out with a bug bounty program? Is that the standard procedure?&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-1" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, but the thing is that, as you mentioned, you only pay for bug bounty.
You only pay your reward if there is a bug, so you never pay anything if there was no bug at all.
With a penetration test, you pay a fixed fee for a number of days.
So, there’s also more flexibility in this aspect.
If you’re more or less confident about your security posture, then you shouldn’t be paying much at all.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-7" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-7" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>You can call me old school, but I think somebody who works and puts time should get paid for his work and the time he invests.
So, this is the economic twist I am talking about.
Bug bounty hunting will be done as long as it’s economic for either side, right? And the question is always it can’t be economic for both sides, right?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-9" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-9" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yes.
But that is the same about penetration testing, if it’s only financial then I’d say penetration testing will continue as long as compliance needs penetration testing.
Who cares about the findings?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-8" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-8" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>Well, definitely.
But that’s another thing, right? Compliance and doing the fixing it’s two completely different things apart.
Regarding compliance you are right, there are regulations by now that just make it mandatory to do penetration testing.
You don’t have to fix anything usually, maybe you have to, I don’t know all these regulation by heart.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-10" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-10" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It really depends.
But the tendency is, and what we are seeing in the industry is people are not fixing discovered vulnerabilities after penetration tests.
And I personally get the feeling there is a higher tendency of fixing bug bounty bugs, because they cost money.
Every bug costs money, and there is the contract that costs or the report as a whole, no matter how many findings you got.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-9" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
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Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>Then I think you see a different part of the industry than I do.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-11" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>I’m sure I do.&lt;/p>
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Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>Because I do think we work with a lot of companies that really want to improve their security.
Maybe we’re not the standard compliance …&lt;/p>
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Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>You only have the best customers of course.
I’m sure of that.&lt;/p>
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Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>Well, we try.
Of course, what we sell is what the customer wants, and we find the customers that fit our way of working.
And we really want to improve security at our customer’s company.
I mean, maybe there are other businesses, right? There are other goals…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-2" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-2" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;p>It’s true.
But when you work as a bounty hunter, often the person you discuss with has a technical background.
And often in penetration testing, well, it really depends on who you discuss with, but sometimes the person you talk with has more of a managerial background.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-13" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It’s closer to the business isn’t it? In general…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-3" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-3" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, and I mean, technically, if you speak to a technical person, then the person will instantly get what you mean, when you say “Okay, this vulnerability here is critical, here is why.” And the manager may not consider it the same way.
And so, the vulnerabilities may be handled differently in a bug bounty reporting and in a penetration testing.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-14" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-14" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This is also what I’m seeing: the channel into the company is different and the life of the vulnerability or the report is different inside the company.
And one tends to go unnoticed.
And the other one is right at, at the real level.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-12" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-12" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>But then that’s more a problem of the company.
I mean, that’s like buying a gym subscription at the beginning of the year, and then not going to the gym, right?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-15" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-15" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, that has a lot in common.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-13" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-13" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>In the end, if you order a penetration test, but you’re not after the risks, and you don’t want to fix them, then why do you do them at all?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-16" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-16" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>For compliance.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-14" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-14" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That might very well be, but that’s a very big missed opportunity in my opinion.
Because you can just do both at the same time with one penetration test, right? You can get the compliance, but you can also improve your security.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-17" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-17" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
Pushing my point a bit further, I mean I’ve read penetration reports, I guess from most Swiss penetration testing companies.
They’re good, or they’re not so good.
Most of them are quite of good quality.
And they come into the company and then people hire me to read them for them, because maybe they don’t understand them or some of the findings.
They like “Christian: could you help us mitigate this?” And it is a Word document or a PDF very often.
And then there are piles of these, and I have rarely seen people taking them feeding into JIRA directly: “we’re tracking them from now, we’re never forgetting again.
And if a new penetration testing finds the same bug over again, we can identify it in the JIRA”.
We have spent days trying to match different items.
Is this the same? Or is something different? It’s the same codebase, but different service, stuff like that.
While it’s very natural for a bug bounty program to use an API from a given platform, it feeds right into JIRA, triage to the right person.
So, this thing is much more proficient more professional, there is a process behind it.
So, this whole penetration is indeed very old school, I have to say…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-15" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-15" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It is not old school at all, if you hire the right company.
Because right from the start from our company, our reports are also delivered as a CSV file for JIRA import.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-18" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-18" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay!&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-16" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-16" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Funny you mentioned it because that’s what we get.
We have fully parsable reports and you get a PDF and an Excel file and JIRA.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-19" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-19" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That sounds cool.
So, that is now a standard for penetration test.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-17" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-17" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.
But that’s also what we try, right? For me as a founder of a penetration testing company I want to get these risks addressed for my clients.
I mean, in the end, it’s their risks, not mine.
But I want to try to get them to understand them and be able to do something about it.
And we try to get as close to the developers as possible.
We reached that with different things.
For example, as you said, there are managers sometimes in the penetration testing area.
Well, we don’t have them.
We, every one of us, does the offering part, the management part, the technical part, reporting part…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-20" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-20" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>But your customer is a manager very often, isn’t it?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-18" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-18" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.
And we have to like make them understand as well.
And it’s very hard, but usually our customers are managers, that’s correct but what we try to do is also get down to the developer level and talk to them directly.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-21" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-21" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And ideally, you get to do that.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-19" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-19" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And that’s where the security consulting comes in.
Sometimes, my job is not even to tell the customer “Okay, there’s this high critical finding” but just to tell, “Hey, by the way, your developer told me this, this and that.
Do you know about that?” And the manager says “No, I don’t.” So, it’s more a big communication thing that is still problematic.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-22" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-22" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It’s all about communication in the end.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-20" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-20" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Bug bounty I think is doing a better job of saying “You need to do things like this, so it’s proper, so the things get addressed.” But I think you can also do a bug bounty program where this all doesn’t apply.
If you do your rules, you can have a “Won’Fix” in your in your rules, right? You can have, you can even pay bugs and say every other bug that is coming in, and is the same, is a duplicate, right?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-4" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-4" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It is true, but it’s where the platforms come into action.
I mean, the triagers they have lots to do building the bridge between bug bounty hunters and a company.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-23" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-23" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>If you are working with a third-party platform provider that links the program and the hunter.
Okay, so they play an important role here and they are not existing in the pentesting world?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-5" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-5" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Well, yes and also there is an old thing, it’s that when you report a bug, you have to justify the impact.
So, you have to wonder what the business angle of the vulnerability is, how it will hit the business, if it’s exploited.
So, you need to have some business sense when you report a vulnerability.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-24" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-24" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, you have an incentive to describe the bug very clearly, so it is understood by the other company, because if you’re not, you’re not going to be paid while he is being paid anyway.
And he’s just doing a good job if he’s providing the service, but his contract is already established.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-21" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-21" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.
But then on the other hand, if I think of one project that’s small budget thing, just one penetration test, and then of course, I think it all comes down to people and communication, right? If you have the right people on the penetration testing site, they can provide you as much value as you can get with bug bounty programs.
And it’s the same also for companies, I think a lot of companies don’t have people who are able to parse pentest reports, or don’t have the power to do something about it.
And I think bug bounty is really cool, because you got the visibility of the managers.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-25" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-25" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Exactly, and that is the point, they don’t have the power to make it happen.
So, the vulnerability is known and it’s lingering around.
Well, as soon as a bug bounty guy reports it, then “hey, this is costing money.
If we’re not fixing it, the next guy is going to report it”.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-6" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-6" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And the triager can help also.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-26" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-26" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I think that’s an interesting difference and that is one that I’ve observed as well.
It may be the same vulnerability, the treatment has to be exactly the same, ideally is the same process, but it has a different color or a different framing into it from where it’s coming from.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-22" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-22" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, but then that’s more like of ideology thing, right? That’s because maybe bug bounty programs have visibility at the moment.
I mean,&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-27" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-27" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>They’re all the rage now, this is now fashionable.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-7" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-7" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I mean, they have visibility because they have evolved a lot, because a lot of concerns that were historically attributed to bug bounty programs are starting to disappear, because now there are private programs.
Now the researchers have been selected.
Now there are triagers that help companies interpret reports.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-28" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-28" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, you see more maturity in bug bounty programs?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-8" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-8" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, and there are better metrics also in terms of critical vulnerabilities found, in terms of how many reports are valid.
The statistics are improving all the time, because the platforms also improve the algorithms.
And I would say that bug bounty is evolving rapidly and also spreading a lot in Europe.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-29" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-29" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, you would say you’re adding more and more value with this?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-9" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-9" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-30" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-30" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And eventually even helping his vulnerabilities being fixed, because new processes are being set up.
And then everybody profits there and as you said and it’s a big market anyway.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-10" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-10" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It’s a very big market.
But we need to be scalable because there are more and more cyber-attacks.
I mean, the Swiss NCSC has shown that there are 200 cyber-attacks in Switzerland every week.
And so, we need to address a lot of Swiss companies and I think that bug bounty hunting can bring this capability also.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-31" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-31" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That’s a good point.
You mentioned National Cybersecurity Center.
Only on Monday, they said they want to get involved in bug bounty hunting, or at least in a Swiss platform.
I quote “a strategic interest in a Swiss bug bounty platform” which I think is quite significant.
Last week, the Federal Council responded to a parliamentary postulate from National Council Judith Bellaïche, who asked for government or administration getting involved in the bug bounty programs.
Federal Council said yes, that’s exactly our plan.
Today, the announcement NZZ bringing a whole page coverage about bug bounty programs, so there is something happening here.
It seems to be fashionable, companies are more and more expected to do this.
On the other hand, Kate Missouri’s – often been called Queen of bug bounty hunting – she calls this “bug bounty Botox”.
So, everybody’s doing a bit of bug bounty hunting now.
And then if something bad really happens, it is “Hey, we’ve been doing bug bounty hunting, so what’s wrong? So, we did it all”, so is this a treadmill that just continues to bring up more vulnerabilities? Let’s try to fix them or not.
And we continue, as we’ve been doing with penetration testing for 10 – 15 years, or is this really a new development? Raphaël, you have said you’re adding more and more value and the programs are more mature now?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-11" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-11" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, certainly.
I think in Europe, we were a bit late to adopt bug bounty hunting.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-32" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-32" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Certainly in Switzerland.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-12" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-12" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.
But when penetration testings first started, companies were like “What? Are we supposed to pay a hacker to hack into our company?” And nowadays, it’s everywhere.
And it’s quite the same with bug bounty hunting, I would say.
The same concerns apply and in two or three years, it will be spread…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-33" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-33" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And standard.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-13" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-13" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yeah, it will be a standard.
Yes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-34" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-34" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-23" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-23" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And you will probably also get the compliance bug bounty program you do for compliance.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-35" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-35" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.
I mean, I remember Tanya Janca, a presenter at Swiss Cyber Storm, she said “Look, a bug bounty program is one of the elements of a security program for your company.
And if you’re not having this, you’re missing something.” And it has its role.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-24" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-24" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I think it has its role especially for larger companies, I think for medium and small sized companies, they have different problems.
And I think they’re way better off with pentest because they also get the consulting part.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-36" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-36" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I mean, you need to be able to read the report.
And the bounty hunter will be extremely disappointed if they’re not getting qualified feedback.
And then you get the reputation of running a bad program, and then no hunter is interested in your program.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Let’s touch on something different.
I’d like to know a bit: We’ve seen differences within the same thing.
How do you guys work on a day-to-day basis? You do your contracts, you read your scopes.
But then how do you go about? I mean, you Tobi probably by now have to cover OWASP standards for penetration testing to give you a comprehensive look.
While I imagine you Raphaël, you can do cherry picking, you can pick what you want to do, the vulnerabilities that you think are interesting, while as you Tobi, you have to do all the boring stuff.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-25" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-25" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I wouldn’t say it’s boring.
No, no, no.
So, and that’s also one good thing about having your own company, right? You can choose what you do – it helps as well, yes.
So, of course when it comes to I would say technically more interesting stuff I think it’s not different, because you will usually get for penetration testing, the scope will usually also be modern stuff, because that’s what companies want to look at.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-37" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-37" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>They want to test a new development.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-26" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-26" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Exactly, yes.
And so, you have to know similar things as bug bounty hunters, right? But I think you can specialize a little bit more in bug bounty hunting probably.
Would you agree?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-14" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-14" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I mean, bug bounty hunting is really interesting because we can focus sometimes on legacy servers.
Sometimes there is this requirement in penetration testing where everything new has to be pentested, but the risk is on legacy systems most often.
So, I would say that bug bounty hunting also allows to have a go at legacy systems and sometimes it gives the necessary push to have these systems decommissioned or patched.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-38" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-38" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
Could I conclude that you are really economically driven when you’re going to look that you expect to find vulnerabilities? And Tobi is probably more where the contract says he has to be looking, could you say so?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-15" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-15" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I’m not uniquely economically driven.
Because I also, for example, I also want to invest time, particularly in European bounty programs and in Swiss bounty programs, because that’s where I live, obviously.
So, in a sense, there is also a choice what programs we want to hunt on, and I really like working in Swiss programs, for example.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-39" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-39" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So you could be working for Apple, where there is probably more competition, but also more fame.
But you choose to also work on smaller Swiss programs, where there is less international fame, because you think it’s the right thing to do and it’s nice to talk to locals.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-16" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-16" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, absolutely.
I think it’s important.
It’s important also for our reputation here in Switzerland.
And I really appreciate helping local companies.
For example, last time I reported a vulnerability that was not on a bug bounty program.
I ordered pizza on a website, and it had a Remote Command Execution vulnerability.
So, I just helped the company, I did not exploit it.
I just found it by watching the website and then just reported the vulnerability to the company.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-40" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-40" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It looked vulnerable.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-17" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-17" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It looked really vulnerable.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-41" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-41" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And it was not the ananas on the pizza.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-18" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-18" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>No.
No, I really want to help local companies and it’s very interesting, because the bug bounty offer has started to grow in Switzerland as well.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-42" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-42" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yeah, I think there are now really popping up.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-27" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-27" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I will also want to pick up your point about us not being able to choose.
I also think that’s the wrong view on penetration testing, because with a good penetration test, you usually get this people in early and you say like, “Look, we have the idea to test this.” But they will tell you “Well, have you thought about this interface? Have you thought about legacy systems? Have you thought about this and that?”, and then you probably set the scope.
So there’s a lot of risk modelling.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-43" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-43" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, scope is a conversation for a pentesting company and with bounty hunting it is much more given?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-19" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-19" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It can be a conversation as well, because sometimes you get a good relationship with the program owners.
And so, they are more confident to increase the scope, because there is some kind of trust relationship that has been going on.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-44" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-44" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, the longer you work together, the more you have mutual trust…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-20" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-20" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And what programs usually do they start with a small scope, and then they increase the scope until they have all of his infrastructure in the scope.
So, I would say that the scope grows as well.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-45" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-45" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, that makes a lot of sense, I guess.
I mean, you try this out, you get growing confidence.
And then you give them more access and more permissions.
Yes, good.
But coming back to tooling questions.
So, you hack away with Curl or…?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-28" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-28" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, I’m working with curl or I mean, obviously, when you use HTTP, anything HP related, you come across Burp, right?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-46" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-46" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, that is your tool of choice?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-29" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-29" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>For web stuff or for web connections, let’s put it that way, yes.
But I mean, in our field, everything can be important, so at least one scripting language and so on.
We write a lot of Python tools.
We have our own tools as well.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-47" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-47" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, so that is then a specialty of your company, these tools?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-30" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-30" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.
But we usually publish them.
I think in the penetration testing world, it’s very good that people work together and publish and write blog posts and to share their tools…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-48" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-48" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That sounds very open source.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-31" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-31" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.
In most parts, I would say the old hacker culture of sharing knowledge is still present.
Because we don’t rely on the bugs to be only found by us, right? I think that’s one good thing about penetration testing, that we don’t have to hide our tools or our knowledge, so nobody else can cash in bugs.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-21" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-21" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It depends on penetration testing companies.
All companies do this, so it’s a good thing if you do it, of course.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-49" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-49" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>What tools are you using?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-22" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-22" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I’m using quite the same arsenal.
I’m using mostly Burp Suite.
I do mostly manual analysis, because I don’t want to break anything.
It really depends.
But most of the time, I’m doing manual analysis with Burp Suite and other tools that I can develop.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-50" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-50" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, it’s not like you run a scanner, you go drink a coffee or two, and then you come back, and then you have five findings, and then you dig deeper?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-23" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-23" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Well, everyone has his own methods.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-51" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-51" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, but what is yours?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-24" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-24" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So usually it’s funny, because after a few years in information security, you get a feeling that a website is pretty safe or not safe at all.
And so, you’re going to focus on the website first, that is not safe at all.
It’s true that it can seem like you’re cherry picking, but in the end, all the vulnerabilities will probably be found.
And also, it’s important to find the easier of vulnerabilities first, because those are the ones that are the most likely to be exploited by attackers in real life conditions.
So, I mean, you can call this cherry picking, or you can call this you focus on what’s exploitable easily first, and then you dig deeper…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-52" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-52" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That’s a more positive way of framing it.
But, that’s good.
And then you do manual analysis.
And then as you move on…, okay.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I mean, you don’t have to provide a comprehensive view.
And I think that is a difference between people are asking you Tobi “Find us everything here”.
And you, Raphaël, kind of have to find more or less.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-32" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-32" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, but it’s also very interesting.
I mean, we get customers from all kinds of industries.
So, we have medical devices, we have car entertainment systems, we have ATMs, we have everything really that is somehow connected or hackable.
So, you can do tools in all of these areas and get results.
Burp is just one of the very generic ones, right? And I think this generalization of a pentester is also something good because it broadens your view.
You have to think about different angles as well and you cannot always pick on just your major topic.
But from a tooling perspective, because he asked about it, we also have our internal tools of course, but we always get them to a certain state and release them.
For example, one of our tools just recently showed us that in a modern iOS application, there was RC2 decryption going on with a 40 bit key, which is ancient.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-53" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-53" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That sounds a bit old school.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-33" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-33" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And then that sparked my interest and I thought “Why is this happening?” And right before that there was a 3DES decryption.
And then I found out well, this is basically just the PKCS 12 standard that says the PKCS 5 standard says that PBE 1 specifies the different encryption schemes.
And while the default one is still 3DES for the private key, and RC2 for the certificate.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-54" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-54" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, in that particular case, would they just apply the standard without thinking twice? Or were they even obliged to do it?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-34" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-34" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>They were just using the PKCS 12, which everybody is using to store keys.
And I think in penetration testing what’s really cool when you get these new topics is that you have to think about new things and maybe write your own tools and it sparks a lot of research.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-55" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-55" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, that’s making it so interesting.
It always drives you to find all this stuff.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-35" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-35" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That’s also why I did all the research about Java keystores.
And there was all sparked by a customer project, because they use this kind of format and exploited it.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-56" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-56" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It’s cool.
Do you Raphaël get the time to do this thorough research at all? Or are new scopes continue pushing you “come here” or calling you “This is new, come test us, test us!”&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-25" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-25" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>In fact, bug bounty hunting is also used a lot by academics.
Academics researchers invest a lot of time in bug bounty hunting.
For example, they work full time as teachers in the universities and then they can apply their research in bug bounty hunting.
They cannot necessarily have a penetration testing job, but during the weekend, they spend time doing some research.
Also, I’ve done research, I’ve had time to dedicate myself to research since I’m not bound by any contract or things like that.
So, I can always take time for myself and sometimes find zero-days in scopes that are in bug bounty programs.
For example, with the Swisscom bug bounty programs, they accept zero-days and I found quite a few of them while working on their program, and it was worthwhile.
So, I would say that it does not prevent you from researching, but rather the opposite.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-57" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-57" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
But my impression was, as a freelancer (I’m also more or less working as a freelancer) and outside of bug bounty program it’s just you’re your own boss, that’s nice, but you also have to be your own boss and telling to yourself “Hey, now get to work!” and it’s not this funny feeling that you’ll sleep in your hammock and you hack away and by nine o’clock in the morning you are a millionaire already.
And it’s not such a happy life, isn’t it? You can work for weeks I suppose, without cashing in at all, because they are going back to you “No, it’s double”, “Somebody has reported this already”, or “We’re not going to fix it.
It’s no vulnerability anyway” and that is tough.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-26" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-26" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>You need to stay motivated, of course.
But I would say that I’ve been a bounty hunter now for a year and a half full time, it’s been nearly two years, and it’s been working out so far.
I’ve done this more than several weeks.
I would say that you need to stay focused, you need to stay organized.
It’s really hard, sometimes you work at 5am, sometimes you work during the day, it really depends.
But also this flexibility is quite good, because it helps me for example take care of my family, of my daughter or so.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-58" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-58" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, you would say it’s not for everybody to run this lifestyle.
But when you’re able to be self-organized it can be really cool.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-27" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-27" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, surely.
And it was a goal for me to be able to self-organize and it’s one of the reasons why I went into bounty hunting.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-59" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-59" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, I see that, interesting.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Here is a thought.
I read up a report by Kate Missouris, where she said an entry level salary for a US penetration tester is around 100k.
I think Swiss entry level penetration testers are making a lot less, whereas there are only a handful professional bug bounty hunters in Switzerland right now.
So, I get the feeling this is a bit of a gold rush phase.
New programs popping up but very few professional bug bounty hunters.
And this is going to attract them in programs like this.
They are going to attract people into bug bounty hunting.
And in a year or two, the prices will come down and the gold rush is over.
And you will be competing for relatively few programs if it doesn’t pan out.
So, this is a gig economy where you have a good life now, but it could be really tough if you have a stronger competition.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-28" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-28" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The statistics say that around only 4% of researchers earn more than $100,000 a year.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-60" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-60" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And that’s what you have to make in Switzerland to be worthwhile, because you have to pay taxes, social security and and and….&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-29" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-29" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, it’s quite a bad number, I would say.
This is why there is so few of us, full time bounty hunters in Switzerland.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-61" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-61" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And the costs of living are so high.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-30" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-30" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes.
But so far, it has worked out well for me.
And I know that other bounty hunters also are doing well.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-62" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-62" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, how many of you are there in Switzerland? What do you what do you think there are?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-31" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-31" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I would say we all like five or six.
So, it’s not much.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-63" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-63" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Definitely less than penetration testers.
And even there, I mean, we have seen a huge development at penetration testing.
I mean, when I entered the security industry, like 15-20 years ago, there were only a small handful of companies.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-36" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-36" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, even 10 years ago, there were also only a handful I would say.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-64" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-64" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, and then they popped up.
And now they all seem to get along nicely with each other.
So, competition can not be so hard.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-37" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-37" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The market grows quicker than the competition.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-65" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-65" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, I see.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-32" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-32" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>But there is only six of us.
Maybe it’s because it’s very hard to get over, let’s say $100,000 a year.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-66" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-66" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Or it’s still very new in Switzerland.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-33" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-33" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And it’s still very new, of course, yes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-67" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-67" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Let’s see how this develops.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-34" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-34" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>But it also means that the hunters, maybe they are battle hardened, I would say.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-68" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-68" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>There seems to be new professionals like you, who started as penetration testers.
And you did not ride off from school claiming “I’ll be rich now”, because you have a lot of experience in what you’re doing.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-35" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-35" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It’s the case of most bounty hunters.
They do this professionally.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-69" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-69" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>…Because if you start out without the experience, you’re not cashing in.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-38" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-38" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I’m a little bit worried about that part.
I think it’s a little bit of grey area of employment law, where I mean, you’re self-employed, right? But that also means you have to play by the rules.
You have to pay that and social security and so on.
So, you have to do that.
Then you don’t get an unemployment coverage, I mean, you’re getting out of debt part.
So, there is more risk in there, more risk in, I would say, a lot of areas.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-70" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-70" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So, self-employment is not for everyone?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-39" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-39" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Self-employment is not for everyone.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-36" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-36" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That is true.
If I don’t succeed the I’d go back to the industry.
Because there is quite a shortage in the security scene in Switzerland.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-71" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-71" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Being in the security industry is nice anyway and nothing bad will really happen.
That helps.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-40" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-40" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>For you Christian and me that works out, but we are not talking about us, otherwise we wouldn’t be sitting here, right? I think rather there might be a long tail, specially internationally, I’m a little bit worried.
I mean, the liberation of working without getting paid maybe is worrying for me.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-72" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-72" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>As long as that is works out for you that’s great.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-41" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-41" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I mean, there is this famous quote “it is a genious way of starting a business, especially because nobody is doing it” and it sounds like a bug bounty hunting has said it, but is actually an Uber driver in 2015 who said it.
Because back then nobody was driving Uber and when you drove an Uber you could do 250k in the US.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-73" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-73" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>This time seems to be over now.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-42" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-42" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes exactly.
No Uber Driver will repeat that [ quote ] nowadays.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-74" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-74" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It’s an interesting analogy.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-43" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-43" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It’s a very open economic thing.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-75" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-75" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Ok.
Time is running quickly.
Let’s see what we can cover, I mean, I have so many notes here.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Law in Switzerland, it’s the final question.
I mean, we have the famous hacker paragraphs on 143, 44 of criminal law in Switzerland.
I presume, this is not affecting you Tobi at all, because you’re in a contract relationship with a company, so you’re covered.
For you Raphaël, you seem to be discovering remote code executions when you’re ordering pizza.
And, are we entering a grey area here already? Are you affected by this?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-37" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-37" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>As long as you do not do the intrusion itself, then it’s not a grey area.
But I’d say that yes, the Swiss law is insufficient when it comes to good faith security researchers.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-76" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-76" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So good faith security researchers are not covered by the law?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-38" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-38" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Absolutely, and it can be done by anybody, by developers, by system administrators… And I think that the law at this moment is more detrimental to the security posture of companies in Switzerland, then it helps them.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-77" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-77" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Ok, because it prevents security research?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-39" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-39" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, some people might be deterred and it would be a good thing for example, if the notion of good faith was added to article 143 because there is this notion of good faith in Swiss law, for example in article 5 of the constitution or in article 23 of the Swiss civil code, and so it says that it can be presumed that people are acting in good faith if they have shown diligence in what they are doing.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-78" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-78" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Ok, and in the criminal code around hacking, that is not there…&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-40" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-40" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That is not there.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-79" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-79" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>You are either a company or you are a criminal.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#rapha%c3%abl-arrouas-41" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="raphaël-arrouas-41" class="">
Raphaël Arrouas:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, if the company pursues a charge against you for intrusion, if you did the intrusion and it was in good faith and you did nothing and you have contacted the company and so on, well you can get into trouble.
There is no restriction to this law.
So, adding good faith in this law for research may help judges determine if the hacking was done in good faith or not.
For example, if you have contacted let’s say the GovCert of Switzerland, if you have contacted the company and say “Okey, there is a problem here” and it would really help researchers work freely to improve security of Swiss companies.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-80" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-80" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, interesting.
Raphaël said, it could be or it might be even bad for companies the way it is right now, and it is deterring for certain people doing this kind of research.
Do you see this as well? I mean, you are teaching, Tobi… Does security industry or security research attract certain people or is it off putting for other ones maybe because of criminal code? How do you see that?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-44" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-44" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>No, I think usually it is not very off putting nowadays because we have the bug bounty programs and people who were interested in it read about it.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-81" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-81" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>It is easier to do this kind of research now if you are interested.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt-45" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="tobias-ospelt-45" class="">
Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yes, I think most people just take the risk, let’s put it that way.
But yes, the longer you do it or if you do it professionally, I would say it’s better to have a company around you or to have a contract.
That is the diligence part.
But then, I agree, we should probably change the law and in general make this a point because I’m not even sure, if my company would protect me when it comes to civil law.
So, it can also be dangerous for pentesting.
I think we have common sense among the judges here in Switzerland, I’m not that afraid, but..&lt;/p>
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Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I think as long as everything is fine, is great.
But when an accident happens, things can go really wrong.&lt;/p>
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Tobias Ospelt:
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&lt;p>Yes.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-83" class="">
Dr Christian Folini:
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&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, I see that.
Thank you guys, I think we need to come to the end of our program.
Thank you my guests for being here, Tobias Ospelt from Pentragrid and Raphaël Arrouas, known as Xel among his peers.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Thank you very much for being here.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Our next Swiss Cyber Storm in a Nutshell: We are planning for the end of April, but you know in these times you never quite know.
And then of course this year we are going to do a Cyber Storm conference.
This will be on Tuesday, the 12th of October.
No matter the pandemic, there is going to be a Cyber Storm.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Stay tuned on our &lt;a href="https://twitter.com/swisscyberstorm">Twitter account&lt;/a>, we are new on &lt;a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/swisscyberstorm">LinkedIn&lt;/a>.
Thank you very much for attending and good luck!&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>SCS in a nutshell with Tobias Ospelt and Raphaël Arrouas</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/02/24/scs-in-a-nutshell-with-tobias-ospelt-and-raphael-arrouas/</link><pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2021 00:00:00 +2400</pubDate><media:content url="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/scs-in-a-nutshell-episode-2_hu_ca1dd9e7ac47c900.webp" medium="image"/><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2021/02/24/scs-in-a-nutshell-with-tobias-ospelt-and-raphael-arrouas/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>SCS in a nutshell with Tobias Ospelt and Raphaël Arrouas&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;img
src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/images/2021/scs-in-a-nutshell-episode-2_hu_ca1dd9e7ac47c900.webp"
alt="&lt;no value>"
>&lt;p>Your host Christian Folini has invited Tobias Ospelt, founder of Swiss penetration testing company Pentagrid, and the successful freelance bug bounty hunter Raphäel Arrouas, also known as Xel among his peers.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>They discuss similarities and differences between penetration testing and bug bounty hunting as well as the legal situation around ethical security research.
How to make good use of vulnerability reports in an institution or company is another topic of this 2nd episode of SCS in a nutshell.&lt;/p>
&lt;div class="aspect-w-16 aspect-h-9 mt-6 mb-8">
&lt;iframe src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/pTCljaQVlTU"
title="SCS in a nutshell with Tobias Ospelt and Raphaël Arrouas"
frameborder="0"
allowfullscreen
>
&lt;/iframe>
&lt;/div>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>Video of episode on YouTube: &lt;a href="https://youtu.be/pTCljaQVlTU">https://youtu.be/pTCljaQVlTU&lt;/a>&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>Pure audio podcast edition: &lt;a href="https://anchor.fm/s/4e5c0668/podcast/play/27303665/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2021-1-24%2F26d71c77-6330-bce3-52c9-9bb6170ace11.mp3">anchor.fm MP3&lt;/a>&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>SCS YouTube channel: &lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY-Wb3JuBv_xpa8s6ZrpUxg">https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY-Wb3JuBv_xpa8s6ZrpUxg&lt;/a>&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>SCS in a nutshell podcast:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Web: &lt;a href="https://anchor.fm/swiss-cyber-storm">https://anchor.fm/swiss-cyber-storm&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;li>RSS: &lt;a href="https://anchor.fm/s/4e5c0668/podcast/rss">https://anchor.fm/s/4e5c0668/podcast/rss&lt;/a>&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul></description></item><item><title>Transcript of interview with Florian Schütz and Edouard Bugnion</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2020/11/25/transcript-of-interview-with-florian-schutz-and-edouard-bugnion/</link><pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2020 00:00:00 +2500</pubDate><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2020/11/25/transcript-of-interview-with-florian-schutz-and-edouard-bugnion/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Transcript of interview with Florian Schütz and Edouard Bugnion&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;div class="aspect-w-16 aspect-h-9 mt-6 mb-8">
&lt;iframe src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/ujf51rOGMe0"
title="SCS in a nutshell with Florian Schütz and Edouard Bugnion - Full version"
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&lt;/iframe>
&lt;/div>
&lt;a href="#transcript" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="transcript" class="">
Transcript
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>&lt;em>This is a transcript of the interview “Swiss Cyber Storm in a nutshell” that was streamed live in lieu of the full SCS Conference on October 13, 2020.&lt;/em>&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Hello, thank you for joining.
We are here in Lausanne at the EPFL and we are going to do an interview with on my left, Florian Schütz, Cyber Delegate of Switzerland, and on my right as our host today, EPFL Vice President, Edouard Bugnion.
I don’t want to go too deep into the biographies, but maybe we can touch on that during the talks.
Obviously, I heard you guys talked a lot to each other during springtime, during Corona pandemic.
I heard you talk more to each other than to your respective families.
Ed, would you elaborate a bit on that? How was your relationship there?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: I can confirm, it’s actually the third time that Florian and I see each other face to face with masks on, of course, this time.
So welcome to EPFL.
I was involved deeply into the development of what became SwissCOVID app and Florian was of course, in his responsibility as the Cyber Security Tsar responsible to sign off on the properties of the system and it has been quite a ride.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Absolutely, I’m sure of that.
I kind of learned that the tracing app is Carmela Troncoso’s baby.
Would you then be the Godfather of it? Is that the right role for you? I mean, you introduced it to the Apple and Google teams?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: Yeah, so I mean, the protocol clearly is the brainchild of Professor Carmela Troncoso and her team.
What I did is following: My background is operating system.
So, I spent my entire career building systems that could be operated, that could be virtualized, understanding the relationship between hardware and software and operating systems.
What we clearly recognize is that this was not only a protocol problem; it was also going to be an operating system problem.
Particularly, the interaction with the operating systems of Google and Apple, which is why I spend many of my evenings in the spring in conversation with Cupertino and Mountain View to work out what was necessary in order for these decentralized applications to emerge.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Very good.
So, you took the idea and made it into a real operating system.
Florian you were the partner for Ed and the EPFL and the development teams.
Can you explain to the audience; what would that role be? Is that the kindergarten teacher role or…?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#florian-sch%c3%bctz" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>Certainly not.
I mean, sometimes when projects go at the high, it feels a little bit like kindergarten, but that’s just the norm.
Actually, we had a much broader role, I think.
There were many more parties involved than those just mentioned.
We had in the lead the Bundesamt für Gesundheit, we had the Cantons which had to play a role.
We had many different players.
Our main role was to make sure that we do the internal security testing of the final product before pushing it through a public security test.
After that, we were taking reports on potential vulnerabilities and triaging them to the right parties that they can get fixed.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-3" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay.
So, you took a coordinating role, a bit of a turntable, but security testing is something you have in mind with the National Cyber Security Centre.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#florian-sch%c3%bctz-1" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-1" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I don’t think we can do testing at a scale.
That’s not how we are set up and I don’t think that’s how we should set up.
I do think our strength lies in the coordination and in the involvement of the right groups.
However, of course, I do require that we also have people that can actually verify reports and that also have the technical depth to sometimes drill into something that is interesting.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay, good.
Yeah, it makes sense.
We’ll get back to that afterwards.
Again, I hear the app has already more than one and a half million users in Switzerland.
I heard even the service is improving within certain Cantons.
Next job seems to be integrating that in the European Union application.
That is probably on the political level.
Are they really playing hardball with us, using the app on behalf of their citizens when they travel to Switzerland, to make us sign the Association Treaty? Is that really the game here, or why were we not allowed into the app so far?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: I’ll take the easy part of the answer, which is, I’ll give the background and then I’ll turn it over to Florian for the interpretation.
The easy part is the protocol, which is designed to allow national applications to operate separately for the residents of their own countries.
But of course, whenever somebody goes across borders, there is an exchange of information, so that you can be protected.
Both, yourself and, if you were to get infected, you can protect the people and notify the people that you were in touch with, even in another country.
This requires a level of technical interoperability.
From a protocol and implementation perspective, this is something that is fully worked out.
This is something that is being put in place: an European federated gateway.
It’s going to be running out of a data centre in Luxembourg and it is going to coordinate the access and exchange of data from a number of European countries.
Now, that set of European countries is to be determined and this is where I turn it over to Florian, to speak about the Swiss situation.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#florian-sch%c3%bctz-2" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-2" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I mean, I can’t really comment on the political dimension because I’m not in the lead or we are not heavily involved.
I can comment a little bit on security collaboration.
I don’t think that security collaboration will be an issue, because we already have very strong collaborations with the different European states.
For example, using the network of the European GovCerts – we are tightly embedded there – and collaborating and helping each other.
So, I do think in the end, there is, as with everything, multiple dimensions involved.
I think the technical dimension is one that’s almost solved at least and the rest, we’ll see how it works out.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
And then that happens, apparently, on the political level, because the technical level is worked out and somebody else has to take charge of that.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-3" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>Yes.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay.
Fair enough.
Good.
We are plagued with vulnerabilities every day.
I checked the CVE numbering and we are up to 20,000 already, and it’s only early October; certainly a new record again, and again.
One of them stuck out a bit in September was this BLESA thing, so the Bluetooth Low Energy Spoofing Attack.
It will allow an attacker to spoof on server devices and send out and indicate the data.
The way I read it, it could be used to airdrop on phone calls and people using the Bluetooth devices in webinars, telcos, but it’s probably also touching on the tracing app a bit.
Could you elaborate on that?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: No, so it’s actually… I think the vulnerability you are referring to is one that is tied to connection-based Bluetooth establishment between devices and the tracing app, SwissCOVID in Switzerland uses simply beacons to exchange information so there is no establishment of connections.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-7" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So, it’s different technology?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: Yes, it’s a different technology, different lower-level protocol.
But of course, this vulnerability is an example of the fact that we live in a world that is imperfect, where there are a lot of devices.
Sometimes the bugs can be fixed in firmware, sometimes they cannot be fixed in firmware.
So you end up having in some rare cases, even the situation where there are some devices and hardware devices and peripherals that are out there in the market that cannot be patched, cannot be fixed and they are still being used by people.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-8" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay, yeah, that is a recurring problem, of course.
Maybe time to leave COVID behind now.
This one question; I mean, there is a huge data collection.
And I’m sure a sociologist would have a lot of interest to know how long do people meet each other? How close do they get to one another, north of the Alps, south of the Alps? Where are parties happening, where it’s not and stuff like that.
But I also get the feeling, it would be an interesting instrument to measure the efficiency of different cantons.
How do they work and how do they interact, who is improving and is this digitalization actually working? Or is it more…?&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="professor-edouard-bugnion" class="">
Professor Edouard Bugnion:
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&lt;p>I can respond to this on the first point, and I kind of know the way you were putting the question.
We don’t collect any of that, nor can we actually collect any of that.
What’s fundamental about the approach is that the information that is collected by the phone stays on the phone and is never shared with a third party.
So there is actually no global view of things.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So that you cannot do?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: That we cannot do at all.
We are not delivering any insights.
What we do have is, right now we are at the level where, and unfortunately, because of, of course, the epidemic situation, the level where we’ve well exited the range of the law of small numbers and we now have some statistically significant insights into how the various parts of the countries are using the app because of the people who call the hotline.
To give you a few numbers, if you look over the last few weeks or few days, there well over 200 codes entered every single day by people who are infected and contagious and who were provided with a COVID code by the capital physician.
That leads to the automatic notification in the network.
And then people in the network have first of all, they have the opportunity to change their behaviour and break infection chains by simply changing and adjusting their behaviour.
They have the right to do a free test that’s established in the law.
They also can call a dedicated hotline to get advice, and in some cases to ask to be quarantined.
The number of calls on that hotline just yesterday on the single day was 600.
Every day is breaking new records.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So we are now at the point where we know more.
We have a sense of the use of the product.
It’s demonstrating its efficacy and its efficiency and its speed.
Speed is everything in this pandemic.
And then the hotline does have some statistical information about the Canton of residence of the people.
So we know the Cantons that basically get more calls with respect to the number of cases and the ones that have less.
We can attribute it to many things, but one of the main ones being the efficiency of the various Cantonal processes.
We have 26 of them in the country.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yeah, and they are not all the same.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: We have 26 flavours.
We don’t get to choose yours, but you have 26 flavours.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yeah, I see that.
Thank you.
Florian you obviously took immediately an important leading role during the pandemic, with the COVID tracing app, etc.
You could say it was probably a bit a blessing for the National Cyber Security Centre.
I don’t know if you would put it that way, but it established yourself an important position in Bern, which was probably not so easy first.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#florian-sch%c3%bctz-4" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-4" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Well, with risk comes opportunity and that’s the important part.
I do think what we have proven with National Centre for Cyber Security that basically was very young.
A little bit on the history, I joined last August.
We actually founded the reporting entity where citizens and companies can report problems to on the first of January and we have the legal baseline fully into place for everything I do and my colleagues do in the core group of cyber and the steering committee, and the Cyber Ausschuss is in place since first of July.
I think we certainly proved that we can actually deliver, even if we are not fully set up, even if things are sometimes a bit chaotic and even if people have to work extra shifts.
I must say I was very, very impressed by our employees, who really did double shifts because they believed in the good of the things.
It’s not just the SwissCOVID app.
I mean, you have to see, we faced a shift in attacks; we didn’t see more attacks.
We faced a shift using the COVID theme.
But we were also very, very cautious about our hospitals, because we feared that now is the time to actually attack hospitals, because now they are more likely to pay a ransom, for example.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-12" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-12" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So, ransomware get new targets now.
It would be a perfect moment.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-5" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Well, they didn’t in Switzerland.
It turned out not to be a problem here.
It was a problem in some countries, but this also led us to develop technology, with which we actually could support the hospitals.
At the same time, while supporting the app, we developed new services and… well, let me call them prototypes, (not products) to actually support them.
We pulled up new processes and at the same time, what we did is, for example, for this security testing, we also sort of documented a very, very lightweight process.
we did the calculation of what it costs, so we can repeat it.
I think it shows that even in government, we can actually use an approach where we start small and then get better.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yeah, that is surprising that you can do that in government.
That is true.&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>In my opinion, actually, it’s not that surprising.
I mean, look, I came from outside, I had my ideas, but actually what you have in government is a lot of very motivated people across all departments, and they want to collaborate.
Now, it’s not always easy within the structures that exist.
For example, one speciality is, if something is not forbidden for you, you can just do it.
For us as government employee, it’s different.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>If it’s not written then you are allowed to do it.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-7" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>If it’s not allowed, then we can’t do it.
So that was also why we needed the law for the SwissCOVID app and everything.
And that just changed a little bit the dynamics around.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So just to repeat it; because you are not entitled to fulfil a certain role, you cannot do it.
Unless the law or the parliament grants you the right to investigate this, or do this, perform this action.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-8" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>Yes.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: Yeah, I mean, that’s certainly tricky for people not working for government.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-9" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>It’s always a trade-off between speed, but also being sustainable.
It has also positive effects.
It refrains us from just jumping on the next bandwagon and do the next cool thing.
We’ve got to think it through.
It forces us to also explain it to lots of different stakeholders, to lawyers, to the population, to parliamentarians.
We have to make sense of the idea.
I think that’s actually a good thing because you want solutions that come through.
For example, if you look at the MELANI, which is now part of the National Cyber Security Centre, that was founded 2004 actually.
This is 15 years old.
I remember back in the time I was working in Switzerland, I was working close to government and other states actually had the discussion that they put all these structures in place for Cyber Security.
Switzerland just started with a small entity that actually delivered value.
We didn’t scale yet.
It wasn’t perfect and actually, we came a long way.
MELANI, for example, has an excellent reputation across Europe.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>It has an excellent reputation, given the size of it.
It’s on equal height with different states, which have huge organizations behind them.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-10" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>I think it’s important that we don’t forget that.
Well, I’m generally a very critical person and I like to poke around on the things that do not work.
I also think we need to see that in government not everything is slow and not working.
We have some pretty nice things.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-17" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Glad to hear that.
So touching that again, Switzerland is somehow a bit of a federalistic mess when it comes to cyber initiatives.
Personally, I think that is actually a good thing from a resilience perspective, because there are so many people interacting, but speed is a problem there.
Would you say you get to be a moderator in all these conversations? Is that your role or is it more the security testing thing?&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-11" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>I think it’s a layered role.
First and foremost, it’s best if I’m not needed, if it just works.
People need to understand, especially owners of businesses, that they are responsible for their business.
This is not my role.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-18" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So you are not doing their job? You are not protecting them?&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-12" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>No, as long as it’s not a critical infrastructure.
If a company gets out of business, there is competition that fills the gap.
That’s how markets work.
That’s important to understand.
My role is to prevent systemic crisis.
That’s one part.
Together with my colleagues, I’m not doing that on my own.
We have very different parts in government, but before we get there it’s…and that’s reactive part.
There are a lot of preventive things.
One is, really we need to generate framing conditions, where actually businesses can invest in their security in a sensible manner while keeping the innovation up, while also not having to spend too much money, so we stay attractive.
And there comes a lot of topics.
So for example, can we build very, very resilient infrastructure as a default? If we look today at ISPs, they have great differences about the security they provide.
Some will charge you for everything they do in security.
Some will not even let you know what they do.
And this is the…&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>But is this something that you would make transparent or is that a role for you, making that transparent across the country or give a baseline, look this is what you ISPs should do?&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-13" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>My role is to think about framing conditions.
So let me give you one very specific example.
A couple of weeks ago, there was an increase in DDoS attacks on financial institutions.
Financial institutions are in a critical sector.
So we asked ISPs to please block obviously malicious requests.
This is not about censorship; it’s really about 100% identifiable requests.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>And on the network level because ….&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-14" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>On the network level, because they do routing.
They own the infrastructure.
They can do that for their clients, actually.
Now, of course, some of them sell it as a service.
Some providers just told us no, we are not going to do that.
They argument it with freedom of speech, which does not apply if it’s criminal activity.
And some of them did.
But with the clients, with the banks, actually, they did not know whether their provider took the measures or not.
We are not allowed to inform them who did and who didn’t, so this brings a situation where no one benefits in the end.
Prices are not transparent because you could pay a very low price.
The only thing you see is how fast your internet access is.
I see it in our role to not just regulate.
We need to apply regulation if it’s necessary to protect our critical infrastructure and our society, but also to find systems where we can increase the transparency so that all the different participants in the system can win on a fair basis.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-21" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yeah, I see.
Good.
We are halfway through the National Cyber Security Strategy, the second edition of that.
Could you give us a brief status? What is really interesting me is this notification obligation that was put into it.
You need to examine it.
In summer you did an interview and said, this is coming to Switzerland, there is going to be an obligation to report cyber incidents.&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>I must correct slightly.
It’s not yet decided.
So we will… Basically, we are working on a draft on how such a reporting duty could be and how it could look like, how could it be embedded in existing laws or do we need to generate a new law? We will then give a recommendation to the Federal Council in December.
And then they will take a decision how to take that forward.
That’s the important part.
We are not taking the political decisions.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-22" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yeah, but again, they are going to do what you recommend, won’t they?&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-16" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>Not always, but at least we recommend them.
It is our job to make the options transparent and show the effects of that option.
My personal view is that an obligation for critical infrastructure could make sense, because we do have some problems in Switzerland.
We don’t really know how many incidents we really have.
It’s voluntarily to report them.
Some do, some don’t.
This makes it difficult for us to then say, okay, where do we need to invest? Is ransomware the big problem? Is it criminality? Is it online fraud? Is it DDoS? So where are the problems? Where should we focus? Does it make sense to work with the ISP to increase the resiliency of their infrastructure? Or do we actually need to work with the critical infrastructure itself? And I think there, it makes sense.
It doesn’t make sense to have a reporting duty where you report each and every attack.
That’s not what’s interesting.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-23" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>You are not interested in that.
But it would make Switzerland comparable to other European countries, wouldn’t it? For statistical purposes, that would be interesting?&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-17" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>I mean, they don’t really have the statistics as well.
And even if we have it, there is a high dollar figure now.
Now, what do you consider an attack? If you get an alert because of DDoS, well, you probably have thousands of attacks a day.
I used the rule of thumb in my previous profession, as I said, it’s an attack if I lose money.
Even if it’s just 50 Swiss Francs, it’s a successful attack.
And then you come to depending on your company, a couple a day, that’s the average.
If you don’t see a couple a day attacks where you lose money and you are depending on online resources, you are probably not seeing what’s happening.
But that’s the thing.
So even that isn’t interesting.
What’s interesting is an attack that actually endangers the functioning of a critical infrastructure such that they can’t provide the service.
The Germans for example, they do a very interesting thing there, they basically said, if it potentially affects X amount of people.
Because your power transformater, close to a rural region, even though it’s unpleasant for those affected it’s probably not generating as much damage as one in an industrial zone.
And so we need to find measures for that.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-24" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yeah, I see.
National Cyber Security policy, is that something affecting you as university research community at all? Or is this something happening in Bern, where there are new things about it?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: It’s both sort of an operational topic and it’s also a research topic.
It’s an operational topic because we are part of the critical infrastructure as well.
Florian talked about the National Network.
The National Network is obviously one of the many aspects of the critical infrastructure.
There are many other aspects of our digital lives that basically collectively formed a critical infrastructure of the country, and we happen to be running a number of them.
So we are faced with it.
We have a network that is also constantly under attack, and that we need to respond.
This is sort of on the operational side.
And then on the research side, of course, we study all aspects of computing, offensive, defensive aspects of computing.
We have experts in identifying security vulnerabilities in different systems.
That’s part of what we do from a research perspective.
This is also how you end up understanding systems.
If you don’t understand what the systems consist of, then it’s very difficult to have an educated view of what is actually happening.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-25" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>And what is misbehaviour and what is standard behaviour about.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: The complexity of course, is daunting.
There is a very famous luminary in distributed systems that said many decades ago that the definition of a distributed system is when you cannot get any work done because a computer you’ve never heard of is not working.
Of course, now we are in a phase where the number of things that could fail and impact our ability to operate professionally is extremely high.
We need to make from a resiliency perspective, a certain set of assumptions.
This is how we think about continuity.
This is how we think about resiliency in the case of attacks.
By the way, this is also how you think in terms of COVID, where suddenly everybody had to work from home.
And then you realize whether you have the infrastructure that scale or doesn’t scale, it’s not stricto sensu a security issue first order, but it is all about scaling.
Scaling and the ability for infrastructure to scale is a critical part of the response and very often it’s under-looked.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-18" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>Maybe if I can add here, it’s also very important.
We have excellent universities and education in Switzerland.
We have, for example, strong collaboration with EPFL and ETH Zurich.
So the SwissCOVID App was one.
I just met with Professor Peyer who is doing the vulnerability research a lot in Bluetooth and systems, which of course, we also have a good exchange which helped us if there is something that could affect critical infrastructure.
We are discussing these opportunities.
We work very closely with ETH Zurich, with Professor Perrig, who is the behind SCION, a very, very promising protect, where I think there is big national interest as well to roll this out to secure our infrastructure better with a better routing protocol.
Then also, one thing that I would like to address is, at least from my personal experience, a lot of my colleagues today come to me and say well, Florian, we studied at ETH that’s where we know each other from, and they tell me, Florian, I think I’m leaving Switzerland.
There is just no career in IT in Switzerland.
I’m not taken seriously by the management.
If I go to one of the International Tech companies, they take me seriously.
You don’t get Senior Vice President of technology in a national technology company, if you don’t know about technology.
In Switzerland, you can get CIO…&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>You can get very far without knowing anything about technology.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-19" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>And that’s a problem.
I wouldn’t hire a CFO that doesn’t know about finances.
I’m not saying that the CFO must have been in finances all their life, but that person needs to get the basics right.
He needs to understand the matter.
So it’s a pity that we have very high ranking universities, ETH Zurich and EPFL among the top universities in the world and we are actually seeing a shortage of talents because they leave the country and they do the innovation somewhere else, or even worse, they start it here and then go abroad.
We make it very difficult A, for start-ups in Switzerland and B, we make it very difficult for people to have a career here.
I think we need to change that.
I’m not sure if you agree.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-27" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Well, you came back, didn’t you?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: Well, I left first and I was in the US for the better part of my career.
I lived in the United States for 18 years.
So this was home for me.
I did come back.
I came back to a different world.
When I left, it was very clear that there was no career in technology.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-28" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So it improved?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: The way I explained this often is Switzerland made the decision a few generations ago that IT and in general, the digital field was something we would simply buy and operate.
We would not worry about owning it or developing it in any particular way.
We bought a lot of equipment, and the Swiss IT community is extremely good at operating equipment that was developed elsewhere.
Now, if you think about the decision, it was an implicit decision, of course, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago.
It makes sense, Switzerland doesn’t do many things.
We don’t make cars.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-29" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yeah, we buy a lot of things.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: We buy cars.
So okay, we buy computers, we buy cars.
Things are changing now and I think this is where there is a real opportunity.
Because now there is nothing to buy because the IT industry is no longer in the business of selling products that can be operated locally.
They are in the business of delivering cloud services.
So we have a different model where we either have to operate cloud services, or we have to develop the necessary critical part of the infrastructure that we want to deliver for our country, our citizens, our companies, as part of what is known these days, called a sovereign cloud strategy.
I think that’s where there is an opportunity for the community at large.&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-30" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay, interesting.
Let’s get back on that afterwards.
I would like to finish off the Cyber Security Centre and the Cyber Strategy Swiss Government.
A problem that was around maybe historically with MELANI was competence.
To give you a completely hypothetical example; if the military would gather a server exploited, some unpatched server, would you have the competence to lay your hands on that server to do the forensic analysis? Is that sorted out or is this still a hot issue?&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-20" class="">
Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>I think if I personally do the forensic, it’ll take too long.
I’m pretty sure I can still do some stuff, but I’ve not done that in many years.
Now, joking aside, you mentioned the military.
The military has the Führungunterstützung Basis as the IT provider.
We have different IT provides within government.
They are responsible for their own security, first and foremost.
That’s why they have a security team with very good security people, actually.
The thing is when an attack now happens, with the new ordinance in place, they need to report it to me.
Now, it is not my goal to take over control, it’s my goal to inform the others and to see the risk, and then determine is the risk becoming too high? Do we actually need to coordinate it on an interdepartmental basis? Do we actually need to involve the GovCert? But even on a daily basis, whether it’s the Department of Defence or the Department of Justice, or any of the other departments or be it in our own department, people help each other.
That’s already working on a working level.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay, it’s working on a level and you think the competencies are slowly being sorted out because the more you establish the stronger the centre becomes.&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>Look, it’s a pretty normal thing.
People that are competent like to work with people that are competent.
So that’s happening.
I do think where we need to improve is on a process level and on the leadership level.
Before my role was founded, there was no real coordinated action towards defining these processes.
We still have a way to go there to define them, but we are working on that, we are collaborating, we are working more together and I think that’s a positive development.
We still have a way to go, though.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay, good.
Ed, I saw open-sourcing of the COVID tracing app as a signal in Switzerland.
That is publicly interesting, that is a privacy affecting app and we kind of have it in the law, it has to be open source.
Do you think that is a trend? Is this the way it has to be or could it be different? And Florian, do you agree that like government, the law is making things like that mandatory, like transparency, open access, etc.
What do you think?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: In the case of the app, if you think about why it became a success, it’s a combination of technical and non-technical aspects.
On the technical aspects, why we developed a product that works, it’s not perfect.
There are a very large number of constraints that we had to work through.
It is a pragmatic approach.
And it doesn’t have to be perfect.
Remember one thing in this pandemic, nothing has to be perfect.
It’s the combination of different imperfect mitigation and prevention measures…&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Speed matters.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: …that will let us defy this pandemic.
And then we have next to the technical aspects, we have the sort of the non-technical aspects which are aimed at ensuring transparency and confidence.
One of them was we wanted to make sure it was very important that this was a voluntary and non-discriminatory use of an application, right? You can use it; you don’t have to.
And the other one was to make sure that we had a best practice approach to transparency.
In particular, by making sure that the application was open-sourced.
To me, it’s actually kind of a relatively straightforward evolution of what citizens should expect out of government applications.
As soon as you start putting any kind of algorithmic decision making into a government process that affects the life of citizens, it’s fundamental that this is open sourced.
For example, France has a very, very complex algorithmic-based way of dealing with admissions into higher education.
It’s their educational system.
And whether the system is good or not good is not the point.
The point is it’s essential that there is some level of transparency about how it is implemented so that people who are going through the system have a sense of fairness…&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>What is happening to them.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: What is happening to them.
I think this is something that we can learn from.
You can generalize.
The notion of transparency of reporting of when things work and when things don’t work, is actually becoming the norm.
One thing we have not mentioned yet, because it is not the law of the land in Switzerland, is GDPR.
But GDPR even though it’s not the law of Switzerland, it is absolutely the law of the land for all of the companies that do business with people who live within the European Union.
I know cases where you end up having a situation where you have a data breach, these things do happen.
If it involves a relatively large database, you end up very quickly having to notify multiple agencies in Europe, potentially all 28 of them.
And then you don’t have to notify the Swiss.
That is because the law doesn’t require that there is a notification in the case of the data breach.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The revision by the way of the data protection law is actually not going all the way to the levels that are expected with GDPR.
So, we have a situation on the Swiss side where we have a… We need to operate, particularly in the private sector with a global environment, at the risk of offending legal scholars of Switzerland, where Swiss law doesn’t really matter that much.
Because when it comes to the digital world, the reality is it’s the European data protection law that matters when it comes to data.
It’s the American law that matters when it comes to Cyber Security and the potential legal risk of having some warrants to access data, even when the systems are overseas.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yeah, I see.
Florian, I’m sure you are sitting in different government bodies where these topics are discussed.
Is it true and do you see the same trend? Or you think transparency is as important? I don’t get transparency as particularly a Swiss quality.&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>I wouldn’t agree on that.
I do think transparency is a Swiss quality, though we need to define what transparency means.
So, I 100% agree with what Ed said.
But saying something is open source and now it’s transparent, in my opinion, is just plain wrong.
Open source can be one measure to build transparency and trust.
There are others.
So, I trust…&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Could you replace it with something else?&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>Yeah, sure.
If you have, and that’s a personal opinion of mine, if you put out a product, and you tell me it’s being verified by I don’t know, by the National Centre of Cyber Security, no.
Joking aside, but it has been verified by EPFL, it has been verified by the CCC, Net Neutrality, those people looked at it and probably Microsoft reviewed it, I don’t know.
I’m going to trust that application more than the Linux Kernel, because the example Linux Kernel had a problem in the SSL module that wasn’t discovered for years.
Just because it’s open source, itjust means everyone can look at it quite often.
That means no one does.
And even there, when we look at code, it’s very complex.
By looking at it, you don’t really gain anything.
So you need to do the analysis.
You need to use semiformal or formal methods in order to really come to conclusion.
It’s just one measure and that’s from the security aspect.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The second thing really is that we do actually discuss a lot is how we can gain the trust of the target groups.
Quite often in government are these the citizens or the companies.
Now, it’s not always straightforward because there are different interests.
Sometimes you have a service provider that provides a service that wants in the end to earn some money by providing that service.
You have an operator of infrastructure.
You have maybe a political intention behind them.
You’ve got to bring that all together and build a solution that is trustworthy enough to be adapted.
I think that’s the puzzle that we are trying to solve.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>I mean, trust is a hard problem and it doesn’t come out of thin air.&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>You wanted to add something?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: I mean, from a just very generic IT deployment perspective, there are always three angles that you need to trade-off between.
It’s the technology stack that you use, it’s the operational measures that you put in place and then it’s the legal security that you have, and also to the converse, which is elements of legal insecurity that may arise from the operation of the system.
If you look at where we are today, you can make decisions and you may have the best technology, but a very bad operational model, so it won’t help you that much.
You may have the best technology and some aspects of legal insecurity when you look at the legal basis.
And that, by the way, is the state of the art of the cloud today.
If we use a US cloud property, then you end up having a situation where basically the technology has been worked out by very massive companies.
The operational model and the security of the operation model is been greatly simplified so that you effectively don’t depend on the total competency of a very large number of people within your organization.
You can rely on the operational competency of people who are paid to be obsessed about it.
And of course, what you trade-off is the fact that you don’t have the same legal security and clarity that you’d have if you were to operate things yourself.
And so those trade-offs are inherent into the modern IT world.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The other one that’s very important to always keep in mind is this notion of… With trust is the notion of privacy by design.
Try to minimize how data is organized, how data is collected, making sure that data could be erased, making sure that if data were to be lost it would not be reversible back to clear data, at least to the extent possible.
And systems need to be organized to minimize the amount of data they collect.
And then make sure that they manage the data that they do collect in the most privacy preserving and security conscious manner, and the most transparent manner as possible.&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>Let me take up the second part of your question about regulation.
The way you put it, it was like, okay, we need more regulation.
To me, it was quite interesting how quickly people ask for regulation and at the same time how they don’t want regulation at all.
That’s always a difficult thing.
Personally, I do think we should limit regulation as much as possible, because having good regulation that still keeps enough openness for innovation and competition and these things is very, very difficult.
And often, the markets sort themselves to a certain extent.
That’s where, for example, everyone’s responsibility comes in.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>If you are a company, if you are doing a contract with an IT provider, ask them about their security and don’t buy the service, if they don’t offer an adequate level of security.
If everyone does that, we don’t need to regulate that, because the market does.
That’s just examples, but then there are areas where regulation is needed.
Regulation can be something that you can use for two things.
A, you can level the playing field, so you can take competitive advantage out for those that don’t behave to the same set of rules and values that the other marketplace takes and the other is, you can really increase the level of compliance, and by that, improve the level of security.
But these are instruments that need to be considered very carefully.
And it’s also a very different situation.
It’s hard to find one size fits all regulation.
I often get asked, what do we need to do for small and medium sized enterprises? What do we need to do for the big ones? That’s completely the wrong method! It’s the question of the degree of digitalization.
What’s the assets that you actually have? If you are a biotech company that has this revolutionary new method for, I don’t know, genome sequencing or something, well you need a different protection level than the big E-commerce that sells fruits, or… I’m making this up, of course, but…&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Customer databases are something completely different.&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>I’m not saying it’s not valuable.
Personal data is something of the most valuable we have, but that’s, as I said, if you apply data minimization schemes, and basically everything you leak is also in the phone book, that’s probably less of a problem than a genome database with genomes of group at risk in our population.
So, it’s this risk topic.
Regulation isn’t the one size fits all.
In actual fact, there are many, many more measures that can be taken before.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay.
Okay.
Florian, you mentioned SCION as a very interesting project before.
Ed, let’s say SCION would have a Swiss tag: “Made in Switzerland” on top of it, if it takes off.
What other interesting research can we see maybe also at EPFL, Security Innovation Park, Centre for Digital Trust, what should we look out for?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: I think one of the things that’s most interesting sort of in our part of the country is, that we have the combination of the technology depth at EPFL, and Lausanne International.
Lausanne International is actually sort of moving up and becoming sort of a hub to reflect on Cyber Security.
There is an interesting set of new initiatives popping up over there.
The Cyber Peace Institute is one of them; they are a partner of the Centre for Digital Trust.
The issue of attribution of attacks is becoming a significant problem.
It is poorly defined from a multi stakeholder perspective.
There is no clear understanding between countries on how to reason about attribution of attacks.
Even though it is becoming more and more of a pressing problem, even though now we actually have the demonstrated proof unfortunately, that a cyberattack even a form of vandalism can actually lead to the death of some people in some circumstances.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So, the ability to create attribution, it’s a diplomatic problem.
We are looking at it from a technology side.
We are also looking at how the impact of technology on the humanitarian sector, how to provide aid to beneficiaries in a privacy preserving way in countries where the legal basis may be very different or non-existent than we have in the countries we are used to.
So, there are a lot of really interesting challenges that are basically at the intersection between hardcore computer science and the fields of applications.
We’ve talked about health.
I mentioned the humanitarian sector.
We mentioned attribution of attacks coming from rogue countries.
These are all things that are core to the thinking into at the EPFL right now and in more generally speaking, in the area.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay.
Very good.
I look at the time there, we are three quarters in.
It’s about time to see if we have any questions from the audience.
Simon is bringing a few.
Oh, that’s a huge, huge pile.
I hear that we had sound problems for the first two or three minutes on the stream.
Sorry, and thanks for your patience and that you didn’t drop out.
I don’t know what we missed, but we are not going to repeat it.&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>I’m sorry.
It’s not scripted, I can’t repeat it.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>I need to understand this first.
Okay.
Oh, yeah, that’s fun.
Has any of you news about the dedicated Swiss cloud? US Privacy Shield is a key word there.
Maybe in the context of the National Cyber Security strategy, but it sounds like that should read the private sector first.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: Well, there is no US Privacy Shield anymore.
It’s dead.
It was invalidated.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>So, what do we do?&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>I just can’t give you a general answer.
We are not in a vacuum.
Switzerland is part of the world and there are foreign countries.
In the end, we need to discuss with these countries and agree on regulations that span our countries, because the internet is global.
It’s not something that only exists within borders.
So of course, I think where we need to become really good at is to identify upcoming discussions on regulation, be it by others or be it on our own need, very, very quickly, and then formulate a strategy and actually participate in the negotiation.
Because if you don’t sit at the table, in the end, you, in my opinion, always end up losing.
Even if you sit at the table, you can always say no or yes.
That’s your decision then.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay, okay, that typical Swiss problem, we want to be at the table and some of us don’t really want to be at the table, but then we kind of have to be at the table.&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>I have to disagree slightly there because I honestly think the way, or Switzerland being at the table actually had a very, very positive impact on the development of our country and actually, we are known as a very trustworthy and transparent and reliable partner.
I think what’s important is that we need to make clear what our interest is in something, and we also need to declare our interest.
We mentioned SCION.
I personally think we should have a strong interest that this becomes a global standard.
That’s something that we need to put out there.
It’s always negotiation, give and take and put things on the table.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Yeah and we need to get interest, big guys, big parties into the thing that was developed in Switzerland.
And that is negotiation, obviously.&lt;/p>
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Florian Schütz:
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&lt;p>It’s negotiation and showing sense – and we should not be scared.
We can do that.
I mean, I’ve had discussions with multiple representatives of different countries who are responsible for cyber security.
We don’t have to hide.
Actually, what I get pretty often is, we think Switzerland is having a very interesting approach.
It’s very structured, can we learn from you? Which comes as a surprise to me as a Swiss because we tend to be self-critical, but you know we get applause for that, that’s a good sign.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: My view on Privacy Shield and Schrems, Schrems II is, it will be an opportunity.
But I think nobody can really read through the tea leaves and know exactly where this is going to go and the impact that this will have.
It’s very clear that we now are in an era where there is some legal insecurity.
There is more legal insecurity than before.
Some of it is legal insecurity for Facebook and others who are collecting data of citizens.
That’s basically it’s between citizens and these large companies.
It does increase the legal insecurity for some companies who want to basically rely on existing US resources, which these companies will have to reason which is not well understood.
Of course, this is something where these technology giants of course, they want to serve customers in a way that actually meets the customers’ requirements.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The migration to the cloud is one of efficiency and scale.
I go back to scaling all the time.
It’s not designed to effectively allow US law to operate on data of non-US entities.
That is never the purpose.
That has never been the purpose from the perspective of these commercial providers.
It is the reality that they live in and this is where potentially there will be a combination of technological, operational and legal solutions to this problem.
They were cases of sort of European sovereign cloud deployments based in Germany.
One of the things I think that we will need to really reflect on in Switzerland is the granularity in which we think about the borders and scale.
If I give the example of… In the Swiss system, we have a commune system.
I think the communes have generally understood that it’s okay if the data of their commune is actually managed in a data centre in another commune.
Then you actually have a slightly more complicated discussion if you think about would a Canton be comfortable having its data being managed in another Canton? I will remind you: we have 26 of them, including some quite small ones.
And, of course, Florian and I will answer well, it’s only rational to basically put servers in secure data centres and dedicated facilities.
We probably don’t have one of those in every single of our 26 Cantons.
And yet, that is actually a conversation where I’m sure that if we were to dive into the details, we would find some very strong resistance by a Canton to give up the fact that the computers of their citizens would be run in another Canton.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Of course, this is all anecdotic.
The real question is Europe.
Because we need to really think about for which tech class of service, the Swiss doesn’t have the scale to actually have a form of a digital infrastructure.
We may have some things that are either very critical and we would run them locally at a premium.
We may have it in some cases where we have a unique selling value proposition where we actually do that, including on an export basis.
In some cases, the rational thing is actually to come up with some kind of equivalence so that we agree once and for all that Europe is a domain of equivalency…&lt;/p>
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&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-45" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>That was the idea of the Privacy Shield.
That was the … .&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: No, the Privacy Shields are different.
Privacy Shields are not between European countries.
Privacy Shield is between Europe and the US.
Privacy Shield is basically the EU with its critical mass protecting the right of its citizens.
We are not part of it in a way.
We just copied it.
What I’m saying is the role of Switzerland with respect to Europe, when it comes to IT infrastructure and scaling infrastructure… And I think this is actually going to be a political question that the country will have to face at some point.&lt;/p>
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Dr. Christian Folini:
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&lt;p>Okay, okay.
Good.
Another question, which I dropped from my question, but now we have it from the audience, I have to ask it.
What is the formal relationship between the National Cyber Security Centre and the Führungsunterstützungsbasis of the army? I mean, you made a cut there, but I see them racking up numbers on the military side, they are talking about a cyber battalion now, and these people want to be exercising and do something.
While it’s your numbers in your teams, they are growing modestly.
Is this because you are much more efficient, and they need more people for the same job or…?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#florian-sch%c3%bctz-31" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-31" class="">
Florian Schütz:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That wouldn’t be fair to say.
It’s important to understand, I do lead the National Cyber Security Centre, but first and foremost, I’m the delegate for Cyber Security of the Confederation, not of the EFD, not of the National Cyber Security Centre.
I am basically there for everyone.
I’m trying to help everyone and I do think what the military is doing there is absolutely the right thing.
Future conflict has a very strong cyber dimension, and it only makes sense to invest in capabilities to actually defend from and operate in these domains.
I think that’s one.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>The second one is we need to be careful with the numbers.
There is no real classification of how these numbers are counted.
Is the person doing maintenance on the server that has security aspects in the top a cyber security person or not? How do you count this? There is no agreed rule of thumb.
To answer the question, how is the collaboration going and if you’ve got more questions in detail, I can’t answer it in detail here, but you know… just right… In general we have the Cyber Board of the Confederation with the Federal Counsellors from Department of Defence, Department of Justice and Department of Finance.
We have attributed core responsibilities for defence, military and intelligence defence in the Department of Defence, the core responsibility for cyber-crime, the Department of Justice and all the rest of the Department of Finance.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I represent two entities in that group: (A) the core group which I preside, where I have colleagues from Department of Justice and Department of Defence, where we discuss these processes, how we collaborate across government and so on.
That’s where my colleague from the Department of Defence actually puts these topics on the table and we discuss them in the group.
And (B) then we have the steering committee for the National Cyber Security strategy.
I’m not going to repeat the full name.
There we actually collaborate with not only government, but also private organisations.
EPFL is there, ETH Zurich is there, associations, Cybersafe is there.
We have approximately 80 projects there, you talk about the strategy, and there we steer these projects, how they contribute to the national strategy.
That’s very brief.
Of course, we have a lot of different entities that sort of fit in that big picture.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-47" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-47" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, good.
Here is a news bit from Germany where the Bundesland Baden-Wüttenberg(that’s the one across the border in Basel) they opened a phone hotline for everybody just to ring in.
And you just told us that you are there for everybody.
So, is that a thing that is coming? You really want to respond like the fire brigade.
My roof is on fire, my data is on fire.
When I purge that, will be a surprise?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#florian-sch%c3%bctz-32" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-32" class="">
Florian Schütz:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>In the context of my answer, I am there for everybody within government, but my role also involves collaboration with the public and being here actually is part of my role.
Phones are maybe a little bit 80s.
While I like all this 80s vibe, it’s probably not going to scale.
And we discussed… Ed mentioned it often: scale, that’s really important.
We need to learn, we need to become better at scale.
I have a vision, though it’s a bit daring to talk about it in public, but my vision would be a platform where we actually can bring different actors that have a relevancy in the cyber domain, be it cyber risk, be it a very digitized company, be it citizens, where people can participate, and where actually communities also can help each other.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We get a lot of reports from people that got victim of an online fraud or scam.
Now, of course, we get the email, we send an email back, we explain to them what to do, we collaborate with police and everyone to make sure it is correct.
But also, there are a lot of things that are not yet really a criminal act, fakes extortion and so on, but people are insecure.
I believe if we can build a platform where experts and communities can connect, and someone can just ask “hey, I got this email, I’m not sure what to do”, and someone, not a government official, just someone can actually answer and say “yeah, I’ve seen that before.
It’s not that bad, don’t worry.
Report it to the government and it’s done.
We don’t have to do anything.” That could generate an environment of collaboration.
That’s actually very strong in Switzerland.
We know each other.
We collaborate.
If I’ve got a problem right now, Ed can help me.
I just call him up.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But again, we also just meet maybe in a forum.
I’ve seen in private industry for managing incidents, not just cyber incidents, but general incidents.
We have big ones in the companies, I have heard from time to time.
If an online service is down, and that’s a major part of your business, you lose a lot of money very quick.
The most effective instrument was a chat, where people just typed in their answers.
You can scroll back, you can read, you can actually say, oh, no, you really said… Oh, you know, I forgot.
Why not use these elements? I’m not saying that everyone needs to use it, maybe there is also a person that wants to phone in.
I’m afraid we might not offer that, but we have that for example, for critical infrastructure, they can call us on the phone 24/7.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-48" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-48" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>And they do?&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#florian-sch%c3%bctz-33" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-33" class="">
Florian Schütz:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Yeah.
We don’t have that many incidents that require them to phone us, but if they need to, they do.
Yes.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-49" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-49" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay.
Okay.
There is maybe final a question before we wrap it up.
Strategy Secure IT infrastructure of municipalities.
So, we have… The Federation has three layers; that’s the state level Switzerland, small country within Europe, we have the Canton level, and a lot of autonomy is happening at the community level, municipality level.
And within the cyber strategy – making this transparent: I took part in one of the workshops – there was an initiative to help with the municipalities to wrap up their cyber status or the cyber posture.
Is that happening or… because I get feeling Switzerland, the government is fairly good, they have the money, they have the plan, and they have the experts.
Cantons are not doing so well, and then on the municipality level where people are actually living, they are really behind and they need support.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#florian-sch%c3%bctz-34" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-34" class="">
Florian Schütz:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>I don’t think it’s a fair assessment.
There are Cantons that are really, really good at what they do.
You were just in one.
Canton de Vaud is really, really strong in Cyber Security.
It’s impressive what they do and they are very invested.
At the municipality level, you have some that have a fairly decent amount of security and some that don’t.
What we do within the strategy, for example, we work with that label Cybersafe, and we do a pilot there, where they basically help municipalities to implement a baseline security level.
And then they sort of give them a label if they do, and we collaborate there, from a government side under the National Cyber Security Strategy.
And there are other initiatives.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Professor Edouard Bugnion: Maybe just to add, I think your question and Florian’s answer was in a way, a pre-COVID question and a pre-COVID answer.
I think what’s also legitimate to say is, okay, do we think about COVID? Do we think about things differently now that we’ve seen, what it means to actually be forced to go through this massive accelerated digital transformation because of COVID, as a side effect of COVID? It’s very clear, right, some part of the infrastructure, the educational system and the administration system were able to function perfectly fine during the crisis, when everybody was working from home and then other things got delayed in a very, very significant way.
I think, what we need to do, and we will be able to do, once the crisis is over, once we will be post the crisis mode is to analyse, in which cases the service level agreements that the citizens have with various parts of the administrations, were met, and in which cases the service level agreements were not met during the crisis.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I think this will be very, very closely correlated with the level of preparedness from a digital transformation perspective.
I’ll give a few examples.
Can you operate with digital signatures with your administration? Can you do all of the regular change management that you would have from an account perspective with the administration over the Internet in a safe and secure way? Or do we still rely extensively on pieces of paper going through the mail that will then need to be processed by people need to be physically on site in order to handle it.
I think this post mortem will be will be very effective.
I think it is not a cyber security question per se but these two things, the digital transformation and the need to secure the infrastructure, because it is so critical, will go hand in hand, because what we want is to make sure that we have a target that is both efficient, as well as secure.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-50" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-50" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Okay, thank you.
That sounds like a good closing word here.
I thank you very much for participating.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#florian-sch%c3%bctz-35" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="florian-schütz-35" class="">
Florian Schütz:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Thank you.
Just if I may propose one thing, I see you still have many, many questions on there.
So, if you want to hand them over after the chat, actually, I could give you some answers that you can then distribute to the audience that didn’t get the chance to ask.
It’s just an offer.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#dr-christian-folini-51" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h6 id="dr-christian-folini-51" class="">
Dr. Christian Folini:
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-xs opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h6>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>That is an offer.
And then we go through my huge pile of additional questions here as well.
Thank you for the proposal.
So that will be on the YouTube channel.
Thank you all for watching at home with the patience when we had sound problems.
Also thanks to our sponsors, they are probably on one of the slides here, and I thank EPFL and you Ed for having us.
If you are bored at your home offices, and there is no Swiss Cyber Storm today, I recommend watching last year’s Cyber Storm talks that you didn’t.
They are all here on the YouTube channel.
The highest rate is based on the feedback of our audience was one by Tobias Ospelt, Michael Hausding and Dave Lewis.
Thank you, everybody for watching.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Legal Safe Harbour for Swiss Bug Bounty Programs</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2020/10/06/legal-safe-harbour-for-swiss-bug-bounty-programs/</link><pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2020 00:00:00 +0600</pubDate><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2020/10/06/legal-safe-harbour-for-swiss-bug-bounty-programs/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Legal Safe Harbour for Swiss Bug Bounty Programs&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>We ran last year’s Swiss Cyber Storm under the motto “Embracing the Hackers”.
One of the topics we covered was Bug Bounty Programs.
A BBP is often seen as a standard element of a comprehensive application security program.
But they are also mostly unheard of in Switzerland.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We had very good feedback for this motto and we are indeed seeing some movement on the Bug Bounty front.
More and more programs are popping up and more companies are actively thinking about launching a private or even a public program.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>One remaining issue, that is often quoted as a roadblock, is the legal situation around Swiss criminal law article 143bis.
This makes almost any sort of hacking illegal.
A port scan might be OK, but trying out a simple SQLi can be enough to be charged a felony.
And given it’s the criminal law even third parties can send the police after a bounty hunter.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So setting up a bug bounty program can mean that you expose the Swiss bug bounty hunters to legal jeopardy.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>A welcome way to solve this problem would be to make 143bis more hacker-friendly.
Check out the website 143bis.ch for a thorough legal analysis of the problem.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>A temporary remedy is to come up with a wording, that can be used as a legal safe harbor within a Swiss Bug Bounty Program.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Bug Bounty Switzerland has published such a text: a wording they received from Swiss Post and that they release under a Creative Commons license (Attribution 4.0 International: CC BY 4.0).
Feel free to copy and use this in your bug bounty program.
But make sure to link &lt;a href="https://www.bugbounty.ch/legal-safe-harbor/">https://www.bugbounty.ch/legal-safe-harbor/&lt;/a> as your source.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Here is the text you can copy 1:1 :&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#consequences-of-complying-with-the-code-of-conduct-legal-safe-harbor" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="consequences-of-complying-with-the-code-of-conduct-legal-safe-harbor" class="">
Consequences of complying with the Code of Conduct (Legal Safe Harbor)
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;ol>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>The owner will not take civil action or file a complaint with law enforcement authorities against participants for accidental, good faith violations of the Code of Conduct&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>The owner interprets activities by participants that comply with the Code of Conduct as authorized access under the Swiss Penal Code.
This includes Swiss Penal Code paragraphs 143, 143bis, and 144bis.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>The owner will not file a complaint against participants for trying to circumvent the security measures deployed in order to protect the services in-scope for this program.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>If legal action is initiated by a third party against a participant and the participant has complied with the Code of Conduct as outlined in this document, the owner will take the necessary measures to make it known to the authorities that such participant’s actions have been conducted in compliance with this policy.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;li>
&lt;p>Any non-compliance with the Code of Conduct may result in exclusion from the program.
For minor breaches, a warning may be issued.
For severe breaches, the organizers reserve the right to file criminal charges.&lt;/p>
&lt;/li>
&lt;/ol></description></item><item><title>SCS 2020 in a nutshell with Florian Schütz and Edouard Bugnion</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2020/09/07/breaking-news/</link><pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2020 00:00:00 +0700</pubDate><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2020/09/07/breaking-news/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>SCS 2020 in a nutshell with Florian Schütz and Edouard Bugnion&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>Back in June, we cancelled the on-site Swiss Cyber Storm 2020 conference.
We also ruled out a day-long virtual happening, but we said we were looking into a brief online presentation or some fun online form.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So finally, we got it all in place! Here is the teaser:
&lt;div class="aspect-w-16 aspect-h-9 mt-6 mb-8">
&lt;iframe src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/EIfiGZnDuBE"
title="Trailer SCS2020 - join us October 13th 1:30 pm"
frameborder="0"
allowfullscreen
>
&lt;/iframe>
&lt;/div>
&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So what is this about? It’s a talk about cyber security with two people who have something to say.
We’ll have Florian Schütz, Swiss Delegate for Cyber Security and Professor Edouard Bugnion from the EPFL.
We no longer have to present Florian Schütz to you, but do you also know what his job really is? We’re going to ask him.
And then Ed Bugnion.
He hit the news when we brought Apple and Google to the table to adjust their bluetooth stack in order allow for what they call decentralized Covid Tracing Apps.
Ed is also a Vice-President of EPFL, one of the founders of VMware and generally a most interesting person.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We’re going to run this online on October 13, at 1.30pm.
No registration is needed, but make sure you write down the date.
The link to the talk will be posted on the SCS website in time.&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>covid-19 update</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2020/06/16/covid-19-update/</link><pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2020 00:00:00 +1600</pubDate><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2020/06/16/covid-19-update/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>covid-19 update&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>Believe it or not, but back in December, we decided to make E-Health our focus theme for Swiss Cyber Storm 2020.
So when the Covid-19 crisis slowly approached, we padded our shoulders and thought that our gut feeling had been right on target again.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But then things turned really sour, many people died and one conference after the other had to cancel (or went virtual).
We thought our date in October was safe, but that was before we looked at the preparations in detail.
So here it is:&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We are cancelling Swiss Cyber Storm 2020.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>There are several reasons, but the most important one is that we want to make it an on-site conference and we want to keep up the quality.
This in turn depends on a diverse quality program (and a fun hallway track).
And the diverse quality program is only possible with international speakers that offer us their spare time to travel around the globe to speak in front of a Swiss audience.
This depends on the goodwill of our speakers and their commitment to our conference and it’s just that most of them can not guarantee their presence in October.
Planning is very shaky for them now, flights and schedules are completely uncertain, many companies forbid their employees to travel at all and other speakers want to limit their travelling to paid business trips.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We are always prepared to replace a speaker or two.
But selling tickets with the risk of having to set up a completely different program in early October is not honest to you, our audience.
We are selling tickets with our program in our hands and if that program is uncertain, how can we sell tickets?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Now we could push through, we could make it an online conference, we could make it a local conference or we could simply look for speakers that are willing to commit – maybe supporting the commitment with financial incentives.
But honestly, that’s not the Swiss Cyber Storm conference we love organizing and would you really attend a full day SCS online without meeting friends and without talking to the speakers over a beer afterwards?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So yeah, this is a bummer, but we can not organize SCS this year.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But maybe you would be interested to attend a one hour thing? A neat online presentation in the SCS spirit, possibly focused on our 2020 focus theme E-Health? That’s what we are looking into now.
Just for the fun of it.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Please stay tuned, and in the meantime: Stay healthy my friends!&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Some background on Switzerland’s biggest Bug Bounty program</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2019/11/26/some-background-on-switzerlands-biggest-bug-bounty-program/</link><pubDate>Tue, 26 Nov 2019 00:00:00 +2600</pubDate><dc:creator>Florian Badertscher</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2019/11/26/some-background-on-switzerlands-biggest-bug-bounty-program/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Some background on Switzerland’s biggest Bug Bounty program&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/speakers/florian-badertscher/avatar_hu_4c1ffa6c69a822b3.webp" alt="Florian Badertscher" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Florian Badertscher
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>&lt;em>This is a contributed guest post by Florian Badertscher from Swisscom’s bug bounty program.
We are publishing it here on the Cyber Storm blog because it brings information valuable to companies planning a bug bounty program of their own.&lt;/em>&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#embracing-the-hackers" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="embracing-the-hackers" class="">
“Embracing the Hackers”
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>The motto for this year’s edition of the Swiss Cyber Storm conference – “Embracing the Hackers” – was a perfect opportunity for us (the team running Swisscom’s Bug Bounty program) to invite our top bounty hunters to Switzerland, watch the great talks at the conference together, and, of course, have some fun.
We also took the opportunity to get to know each other better.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#how-to-become-a-successful-bug-bounty-hunter" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="how-to-become-a-successful-bug-bounty-hunter" class="">
How to become a successful bug bounty hunter
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Our invited Bounty Hunters show the various paths into bounty hunting.
We had the pleasure of enjoying the day together with:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Patrik Fábián: from Hungary, 18 years old, student&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Daniel Le Gall: originally from France, living in Switzerland, until recently a professional pentester&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Edgar Boda-Majer: originally from Germany, living in Switzerland, until recently a professional pentester as well&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Raphaël Arrouas; originally from France, living in Switzerland, until recently a professional pentester (is there a pattern here?)&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>As it turned out, formal education isn’t that important in becoming a good hacker and one can be either a MSc degree in Computer Science or Engineering, have a professional education as web developer with lots of different jobs in IT or still be learning as a student.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>One thing in common, however, is striking: all of them got into cyber security through participating in “Capture the Flag” events (CTF).
It must be a very effective and fun way to learn about cyber security! Another commonality is the reason they started doing bug bounties.
Some of them made trips into the shadier areas of vulnerability research and wanted to switch to a completely hassle-free and legal way of doing this – as well as getting some bounties and recognition while doing so.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#these-top-bounty-hunters-are-making-a-living-out-of-it" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="these-top-bounty-hunters-are-making-a-living-out-of-it" class="">
These top bounty hunters are making a living out of it
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Many Bug Bounty Hunters worldwide are making bounty hunting their main source of income.
We were also fascinated to hear that our top hunters are now creating their own business around Bug Bounties.
Daniel and Edgar, along with a third white hat hacker, just started their company Bugscale, focusing on research and bug bounty programs.
Raphaël also created his own company.
Patrik still needs to get an MSc in Computer Science, but his bounties will cover all his education costs.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Good bounty hunters are good handicraftsman.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>When discussing their workflow and tools of the trade, we were surprised at how “manual” their approach is.
For discovery, where the targets are identified, OWASP’s Amass is used to query multiple sources of information (certificate transparency logs, Shodan, Google, DNS enumeration, etc.).
But from there, they analyze the websites and servers mostly manually, relying on their intuition to dig deeper and deeper until they succeed.
They know from experience and feel that “there is something to exploit here” and will not let go until a Proof of Concept exploit is developed.
We see this when looking at the time the reports are sent to us: it’s not unusual that the timestamps are way past midnight.
Two incentives are at play: the first one is pride in finding a vulnerability no one else has discovered before, so-called 0-days, and the second is being able to report a finding and get a bounty acknowledging the time spent.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Another good source of intelligence used by Patrik is LinkedIn: by searching for web developers (especially PHP developers, as it’s “a bit crappy”), and looking at their company or blog posts, he can identify applications and websites that may be interesting to check in more detail.
Raphaël and Patrik are also regularly watching our press releases and are happy to test our recent acquisitions.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#bug-bounty-programs-are-not-all-created-equal" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="bug-bounty-programs-are-not-all-created-equal" class="">
Bug bounty programs are not all created equal
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Bug Bounty programs are expanding these days.
There are multiple ways to get one running, and we were interested in getting the perspective of these bounty hunters.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Many programs are hosted on HackerOne or Bugcrowd, well known “managed bug bounty” services based in the USA.
Closer to us is YesWeHack, a French company.
This is the most obvious way to find new programs but also has a disadvantage: a new program will be “assaulted” when starting, everyone trying to get the low hanging fruit as fast as possible.
This can be very frustrating for researchers, spending time and reporting issues, only to discover they have all been previously reported (only the first hunter to report a vulnerability gets the bounty).&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Private programs are more interesting for hunters: by invitation only, a limited number of researchers are given a head start on a new program or new scope.
It’s a kind of acknowledgement of their previous work – well-rated bounty hunters get invited, which in turn increases their chance to get good bounties.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Another important aspect for the hunters is the relationship they build with the team running the program.
In the case of Swisscom, they know how to reach us rapidly.
They know they have competent and knowledgeable contacts on the other side, able to give relevant contextual information rapidly.
This is something that is much more difficult for an outsourced bug bounty program.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Finally, we asked what they liked about our program, and where we could improve.
In addition to the trust and transparency mentioned before, they really enjoy the huge scope of Swisscom.
They also like our rating of bounties, based on the business impact of the vulnerability.
Although this is not predictable up-front, they find it valuable as they gain way more context and insight into the company.
They all wished for a private track of the program, so they could get test accounts and prioritized access to new services.
We will have think about ways to implement that.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#the-future-of-bug-bounty-programs" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="the-future-of-bug-bounty-programs" class="">
The future of bug bounty programs
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Our top bounty hunters agree on one thing: the future looks bright for Bug Bounty programs.
They expect that, in the years to come, more and more companies will be adopting them, especially in Switzerland, as well as more skilled bounty hunters looking at the systems.
It will be harder to find really valuable vulnerabilities as security is (hopefully?) slowly improving over time.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#information-about-swisscoms-bug-bounty-program" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="information-about-swisscoms-bug-bounty-program" class="">
Information about Swisscom’s Bug Bounty program
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Information and facts about Swisscom’s Bug Bounty program&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Scope: all products and services from Swisscom group, including subsidiaries.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Reported vulnerabilities: from low-level cross site scripting (XSS) up to highly critical 0-days in well-known and widely used products.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Numbers from 2018:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Vulnerability reports received and handled: 844&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Valid reports resulting in a fix: 427&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Bounties awarded: CHF 350’000.-&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>A look ahead to 2019:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Looks like some records will be broken…&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul></description></item><item><title>The Swiss Cyber Storm 2019 Program – Part 2 of 2</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2019/09/13/the-swiss-cyber-storm-2019-program-part-2-of-2/</link><pubDate>Fri, 13 Sep 2019 00:00:00 +1300</pubDate><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2019/09/13/the-swiss-cyber-storm-2019-program-part-2-of-2/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>The Swiss Cyber Storm 2019 Program – Part 2 of 2&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>Swiss Cyber Storm 2019 will run under the motto “Embracing the Hackers”.
We have presented and explained this overall theme for our conference in a &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/2019/05/16/embracing-the-hackers/">separate blog post&lt;/a> in Spring.
Now it is time to present you our lineup for our conference on October 15.
This is the 2nd of two blog posts about our speakers.
The first one is here.&lt;/p>
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&lt;a href="#nicoletta-della-valle-and-sandra-schweingruber" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="nicoletta-della-valle-and-sandra-schweingruber" class="">
Nicoletta della Valle and Sandra Schweingruber
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Social Engineering and its use in financial fraud are rapidly expanding: as the criminals’ methods are being refined into sophisticated and targeted processes, more and more people fall for their scams.
The fraudsters are often organized in international networks, which presents traditional law enforcement with a variety of legal problems.
Bringing such criminals to justice requires close cooperation between law enforcement and criminal prosecution.
Nicoletta della Valle is the director of the Swiss Federal Police (FEDPOL), an agency tasked with coordinating international cooperation in law enforcement.
She is joined by Sandra Schweingruber, the Swiss Federal prosecutor for Cyber Crime.
In their talk, Mrs. della Valle and Mrs. Schweingruber will present us their talk titled “An Exemplary Case of International Financial Fraud”.
A case that has been challenging both FEDPOL and the national prosecution office as well.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#tobias-ospelt" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="tobias-ospelt" class="">
Tobias Ospelt
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Fuzzying Java code is a relatively new discipline.
The technique has long been established in unsafe languages like C and C++, but new tools allow to treat Java code in a similar way.
JQF is such a tool.
It has been inspired by the American Fuzzy Loop (AFL) and allows to integrate the fuzzying in the development process or when reviewing code.
Of course, it’s a new tool and there are still some rough edges.
So it’s very welcome that Tobias Ospelt from Pentagrid introduces us to the use of the new machine: “Fuzzying Java Code With the Help of JQF”.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#enrique-serrano" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="enrique-serrano" class="">
Enrique Serrano
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Enrique Serrano is an author and very popular IT security expert in Spain where he is a frequent speaker and expert on new cyber developments on TV.
Currently working for Israeli Cymulate Ltd., he previously worked for IBM security and founded several companies.
Lately he investigated Android security and the ability to use the various capabilities of a smart phone to spy on the owner.
The news of similar possibilities on Apple’s iOS hit the news in early September, but of course, you can pull off the same tricks on Android too.
Enrique demonstrates how he can control the front end camera from a background task.
All in his talk “Not Only On Apple: Spying on Android Users Through The Camera”.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#nikita-stupin" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="nikita-stupin" class="">
Nikita Stupin
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>There are a lot of people who have started to use GraphQL as a welcome abstraction when working with traditional Rest APIs.
GraphQL solves a lot of problems, that the latter bring with them.
Nikta Stupin has been examining GraphQL setups closely as a bug bounty researcher.
He has discovered a higher server-side complexity when compared with Rest APIs and subsequently identified several implementation bugs that he thinks are systematical.
His talk “Access control vulnerabilities in GraphQL APIs” will give an overview over typical pitfalls and best practices to secure GraphQL.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#marcel-zumb%c3%bchl" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="marcel-zumbühl" class="">
Marcel Zumbühl
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Swiss Post did not get the best press for the source code of its E-Voting offering this year.
However, the results of the Bug Bounty Program / Public Intrusion Test are not so bad and of course, there is a lot more to Swiss Post than E-Voting.
Marcel Zumbühl joined Swiss Post as CISO in 2018.
He immediately started to do things in a remarkably different way.
We are pleased to welcome him at Swiss Cyber Storm to hear how he and his team steer his company “Towards Customer Trust” for the variety of its offering in a wildly complex world and amidst growing security concerns and intensified interconnections.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#melanie-rieback" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="melanie-rieback" class="">
Melanie Rieback
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Melanie Rieback’s company Radically Open Security is not your standard Pen Testing Company.
In fact it is a for profit frontend that invests its profits tax free in a Dutch foundation to do internet research and fight for digital rights.
Radically Open Security brings together a group of idealistic security experts that trieve on their ambition to use their hacking skills in socially responsible way.
A tool that Melanie has developed with Radically Open Security is a ChatBot that they use during their Pen-Testing gig.
If you think this must be a social engineering utility, you could not be more wrong.
Join us to hear more about “Pentesting ChatOps” from Melanie Rieback.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>If you have been counting, then you probably noticed, that there are two additional presentations in the standard tracks of the conference.
These are slots taken by speakers that have not yet been confirmed.
I plan to expand the blog post above as soon as we have more to tell.&lt;/p>
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&lt;p>&lt;em>[Disclosure: Christian Folini is consulting Swiss Post on its E-Voting system.]&lt;/em>&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>The Swiss Cyber Storm 2019 Program – Part 1 of 2</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2019/08/12/the-swiss-cyber-storm-2019-program-part-1-of-2/</link><pubDate>Mon, 12 Aug 2019 00:00:00 +1200</pubDate><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2019/08/12/the-swiss-cyber-storm-2019-program-part-1-of-2/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>The Swiss Cyber Storm 2019 Program – Part 1 of 2&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>Swiss Cyber Storm 2019 will run under the motto “Embracing the Hackers”. We have presented and explained this overall theme for our conference in a &lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/2019/05/16/embracing-the-hackers/">separate blog post&lt;/a> in Spring. Now it is time to present you our lineup for our conference on October 15.
This is the first of two blog posts about our speakers.&lt;/p>
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&lt;a href="#dave-lewis-aka-gattaca" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="dave-lewis-aka-gattaca" class="">
Dave Lewis aka Gattaca
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Dave Lewis founded the Liquidmatrix Security Digest, he writes a column in Forbes and currently acts as a Global Advisory CISO for Duo and Cisco advocating security on a global scale.
Dave serves as one of the directors of BSides Las Vegas (This is where the BSides movement started), so he has good ties with the hacker community.
I’d say he has seen it all and he’s in a perfect position to introduce us all to the “Embracing the Hackers” motto with his keynote.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#daniel-votipka" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="daniel-votipka" class="">
Daniel Votipka
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>When we say Embracing the Hackers, this is because we want to improve the overall security of our services.
The bug discovery process is one important aspect of this.
It is well known that adopting a hacker mindset or collaborating with hackers can speed up the discovery of lethal bugs, but how can we really adopt these practices? After all, it’s a bit more difficult than changing your glasses.
We have looked around to find somebody who examined this as we are convinced it is a core issue with security – and a core competence of hackers.
And we found somebody at the University of Maryland who brings this knowledge: Entering Daniel Votipka who presents us his research in his talk “Hackers vs. Testers: A Comparison of Software Vulnerability Discovery Processes”&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#sarah-jamie-lewis" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="sarah-jamie-lewis" class="">
Sarah Jamie Lewis
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>No hacker hit the Swiss news this year like Sarah Jamie Lewis.
She and her peers ripped apart the software of the Swiss Post / Scytl E-Voting system when the source code was published in February.
Working on a shoestring budget, she destroyed the claims in expensive and shiny reports by renown ETH professors and KPMG.
When the Federal Chancellery forced Scytl to publish the source code of its online voting system, that was a novel move in Switzerland.
Sarah Jamie Lewis promptly delivered the proof why this detail in the regulation was in fact a key element.
If you follow Sarah on Twitter, you know that she is not shy when it comes to expressing her thoughts.
We’re looking forward to her presentation “How not to secure your E-Voting system” that promises to go right at the heart of the problem.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#christian-killer--melchior-limacher" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="christian-killer--melchior-limacher" class="">
Christian Killer / Melchior Limacher
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>While everybody is talking about E-Voting these days, we are easily forgetting that only 2% of the voters ever used the electronic channel in Switzerland at any given vote.
Over 90% of voters vote by post mail.
In an international setting, this number is staggering and global voting experts are getting the creeps by the mere thought of 90% of voters sending their votes in a letter.
But our trust in Swiss Post is unbroken as is the trust in the local communities and their credibility when it comes to counting votes.
After all, they are counting by hand, aren’t they? Christian Killer examined the highly digitized process around voting by mail and Melchior Limacher is looking at the security of some of the electronic systems involved; systems where regulation is almost completely absent.
One week before the national elections, their talk “Digital Exposure of Traditional Swiss Voting Channels” is a welcome description of a process that very few people really know.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#nicole-becher" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="nicole-becher" class="">
Nicole Becher
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>When I first talked to Nicole Becher about cyber insurance two years ago, she explained how this market is in full motion and that we can not be quite sure where it is heading.
And that the big case was missing; the case that would give guidance to all involved parties.
So I decided to give it another year or two before we would look into that topic at Swiss Cyber Storm.
But the missing case seems to have materialized now in the form of Zurich vs. Mondelez.
This case is about the refusal of the American branch of Zurich Insurance to indemnify Mondelez (speak Toblerone!) when Petya shut down one of their German factories.
Mondelez has an infrastructure insurance covering cyber security incidents of this level, but Zurich refuses to pay as the policy does not cover acts of war.
Zurich states the malware was set free in the war of Russia against Ukraine and Zurich is not liable.
“A Primer on Cyber Insurance and Insight Into Zurich vs. Mondelez” promises to be a very interesting talk.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#liis-vihul" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="liis-vihul" class="">
Liis Vihul
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>So if Zurich says, that Petya was an act of war, what is war in cyber space? Who can decide if it is a war? The country that fell victim to an attack? An American court? Interestingly, there is no established norm that defines a war in the virtual world.
Yet everybody is using the so called Tallinn Manual as a proxy to such a norm.
And we thought who is in a better position to explain this all to us than somebody who worked on said document: Entering Liis Vihul from Cyber Law International, the managing editor of the 2017 edition of the Tallinn Manual.
Her presentation “What Is Cyber War in International Law and Why Does It Matter?” will put a few things straight.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>&lt;em>[There is a certain chance Liis will have to cancel her appearance at Swiss Cyber Storm on relative short notice.]&lt;/em>&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#peter-hladk%c3%bd" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="peter-hladký" class="">
Peter Hladký
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Penetration testing is well established in most large Swiss organizations and enterprises.
The usual next step when embracing the hackers – a bug bounty program – is rarely taken though.
And also Red Teaming, considered a more holistic extension of the pentesting concept, is mostly unknown despite being a ubiquitous topic at international conferences.
However, there is an exception in our country: Credit Suisse has an official red team running under the direction of Peter Hladký.
He will tell us about Red Teaming, how you can do it in Switzerland, what it means for his company, how it fits into the overall cyber security posture of a bank – and if we are lucky, he is allowed to present some real cases: “A Practical Approach to Red Teaming in Switzerland”.&lt;/p>
&lt;a href="#jaya-baloo" class="group no-underline hover:brightness-90">
&lt;h2 id="jaya-baloo" class="">
Jaya Baloo
&lt;i class="fa-solid fa-link text-base opacity-0 group-hover:opacity-100 align-middle">&lt;/i>
&lt;/h2>
&lt;/a>
&lt;p>Jaya Baloo is a charismatic speaker.
Seven years the CISO of KPN (Koninklijke PTT Nederland), she sure has the background to give us her very personal view on the theme “Embracing the Hackers”.
Even more so as the Netherlands really overhauled the complete cyber security setup after the issuing of fraudulent certificates by Dutch DigiNotar in 2011.
This encompassed countless initiatives including a law that creates a legal safe harbor for hackers participating in bug bounty programs (a vital element that is missing in Switzerland).
And Jaya picking up a new job as CISO of Avast in October 2019 does not change this a bit.
It only makes us more grateful for he coming to present at Swiss Cyber Storm.
Join us to listen to Jaya Baloo telling us her “Lessons From the Trenches”.&lt;/p>
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&lt;p>&lt;em>[Disclosure: Christian Folini is consulting Swiss Post on its E-Voting system.
He almost wet his pants at the thought of inviting Sarah Jamie Lewis.
But then she really deserves an audience!]&lt;/em>&lt;/p></description></item><item><title>Embracing the Hackers</title><link>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2019/05/16/embracing-the-hackers/</link><pubDate>Thu, 16 May 2019 00:00:00 +1600</pubDate><dc:creator>Dr. Christian Folini</dc:creator><guid>https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/blog/2019/05/16/embracing-the-hackers/</guid><description>
&lt;h1>Embracing the Hackers&lt;/h1>
&lt;br>
&lt;img src="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/team/christian-folini/avatar_hu_becb47f94c978f82.webp" alt="Dr. Christian Folini" style="width: 48px; height: 48px; border-radius: 50%; vertical-align: middle; margin-right: 10px;">By Dr. Christian Folini
&lt;br>
&lt;br>&lt;p>Engaging in Penetration Testers to gauge the security of existing online services has become a standard practice in our industry in Switzerland.
Established services and new offerings are tested alike in order to uncover hidden bugs or to raise awareness of security problems that often go unnoticed with management or developers.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But of course, there is more to security than only a pen-testing contract from time to time.
It has to be part of a comprehensive application security program together with other elements.
Yet some of the standard elements of successful security programs are missing across the board in the Swiss context: It’s Bug Bounties and related initiatives that very few companies are using as tools in their security programs.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>I think it is typically Swiss to take penetration testers under contract and have them attack dedicated systems after a detailed scoping workshop.
Yet people lack the trust and self-confidence it takes to open up and to allow anonymous security researchers to attack productive services to complement the picture.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>That self-confidence is rare around here.
That’s why bug bounties are rare in Switzerland and this leads to several problems:&lt;/p>
&lt;ul>
&lt;li>Security issues are going undetected&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Researchers discovering security issues have no way to report them in a legally sound way&lt;/li>
&lt;li>There is a lack of engagement of IT companies with the wider security community and companies are likely out of touch with bleeding edge security developments&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Recruitment opportunities are being missed&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Excessive money is spent on security with a far smaller return on investment&lt;/li>
&lt;li>I am not advocating the replacing of penetration testing with cheaper bug bounties.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Far from it.&lt;/li>
&lt;li>Running a bug bounty program on a system you have not tested thoroughly by other means is likely to lead to disaster and embarrassment.&lt;/li>
&lt;/ul>
&lt;p>Bug bounties are meant to uncover additional problems after you have looked everywhere you can think of.
When you have exhausted your standard means of security assurance and you think you are done.
This is when bug bounty hunters come in and leave no stone unturned.
As it happens, these are also the dark corners of your application that attackers will be looking at and what’s better than a security vulnerability disclosed to you before an attacker discovers it?&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So the big internet companies all have their bug bounty programs, but only Swisscom has a similar permanent offering in Switzerland.
But we see some movement now.: Regulators are actively pushing for more openness in the development process, red teams are being formed and several Swiss companies are actively considering to launch Bug Bounty programs themselves.
It is a big shift in corporate policies: We are seeing Swiss companies starting to embrace the hackers!&lt;/p>
&lt;p>We think this is a very useful development and it is so strong and so important that we have chosen “Embracing the Hackers” as our motto for Swiss Cyber Storm 2019.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>“Embracing the Hackers” also means that we leave the meta-discussions and conceptual talks of the “Trust” theme of 2018 behind and dig deeper into the systems, getting our fingers dirty with the code and thus closer to where the bugs are hidden.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>After all, it’s bugs that spice up the security game and it’s bugs that bring down bold programs.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>When the Federal Chancellery updated the regulation for E-Voting – or online voting if you will – they added relatively benign checkbox that a fully blown E-Voting system would need to publish it’s source code before being admitted to Federal Votes.
Additionally, a political initiative from the national parliament lead to the inclusion of a limited public intrusion test into he regulation.
Both items were meant to be little additions to complete the certification process, mostly imposed to raise the transparency and in consequence the public trust in the systems.
You see the concept here.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Yet in the case of Swiss Post, this is not how it played out.
The source code was published in February, closely followed by the announcement of a separate public intrusion program maxing out at a top bounty of 50’000 CHF.
This brought global attention to both programs and within weeks, several teams were picking apart the source code of Scytl, the Spanish partner of Swiss Post.
This lead to three major findings that proved that the Swiss Post E-Voting system was not meeting the Swiss regulation as is.
The media outcry was so loud, few people noticed that despite the bad quality of the source code, none of the attackers was able to actually exploit the Swiss Post systems which is an interesting twist to this partnership between a Spanish development company and a Swiss operator.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>But whatever.
What we can learn here is, that not the formal review process and the costly audits lead to the discovery of the fundamental security problems in the Swiss Post E-Voting system.
Instead, it was the publication of the source code, the bigger transparency and the bug bounty program that attracted hundreds of researchers.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>So the openness and engagement with the wider security research community brought immediate results.
And there is one researcher that made a name for herself, with her team discovering no less than three fundamental bugs in the Scytl code.
She is Sarah Jamie Lewis, the executive director of Open Privacy in Canada.
And we are very happy to announce her as a speaker for Swiss Cyber Storm 2019.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Sarah Jamie Lewis is an outspoken critic of big tech, a privacy activist and author of the book “Queer Privacy”.
She has made a career as penetration tester and security auditor, she maintains the “OnionScan” Tor scanner and has a big interest in cryptography.
That’s how she got hooked up on the Scytl E-Voting source code and literally spent days and nights for several weeks digging down into the rabbit hole.
And while she maintains she and her team only scratched the surface, it was enough to stop Swiss Post from offering E-Voting for the national vote next Sunday.&lt;/p>
&lt;p>Swiss Cyber Storm 2019 will happen on October 15, 2019 in Bern.
&lt;a href="https://www.swisscyberstorm.com/campaign/">Please join us&lt;/a> to see Sarah Jamie Lewis and many, many other speakers.
The early bird sale is open.&lt;/p>
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